Recently on a friend's blog, there was an exchange over Sarah Palin and other conservative / right wing women. We were addressing the qualifications of women who are influential in politics, either as a politician or a potential candidate, or as a person who is politically influential as a writer or broadcaster with a significant audience of viewers or readers, and the kinds of criticism they receive.
My friend took the position that all conservative women are bashed by liberals, unfairly, and that there is some sort of monolithic group of equally significant individuals who were apparently treated badly for no other reason than their conservatism.
I argued, or at least attempted to argue, that there was no such monolithic group, that the individuals under discussion were widely dissimilar in both qualifications and abilities. I characterised for example Gretchen Carlson, from my post "Dumb Like a Fox", as a beautiful, talented, intelligent and well-educated woman, with a better vocabulary than she demonstrates on television. In the course of the comparison, I contrasted Carlson's degree with honors from Stanford with Palin's multiple lesser college and community college education, and with Michele Bachmann's undergraduate and graduate degrees. I also contrasted Obama's academic credentials with those of the conservative women; Obama's accomplishments exceeded those of all three women.
My intent in examining the education of these women, and Obama, was to demonstrate both their evident intelligence, and what they had done to prepare themselves through education for subsequent careers and impact on the world. I respect accomplishments where some degree of distinction was achieved. I was widely insulted for valuing education, and told that this was not important, because there are other measures of accomplishment, and because the degrees were something accomplished years ago.
I was called 'a snob' for appreciating academic distinctions, and for viewing the women in question as different and not all the same.
I also compared the credentials specifically of Obama and Palin in elected office, noting that Wassilla had a population of less than 6,000 when she was mayor; while Obama when elected to the state Senate of Illinois had a constituency of more than 210,000. As Senator for Illinois, Obama represented a state of more than 12,800,000 compared to Palin governing Alaska with a population of a little over 680,000. Because she held, however briefly, executive office, my friend and his supporters argued Palin was more qualified, and Obama was unqualified because he had only served in the legislative branch of government.
Now, my intent in looking at the relative populations and at academic accomplishments was to begin a comparison with things that could be quantified in some way, degrees was one measure of accomplishment, the size of relative constituency another. Quantifiable comparisons appealed to me as a means for objective rather than subjective evaluation on a topic where subjective views seemed to me to be given too much importance.
At no point did I assert that there were no other valid kinds or measures of accomplishment. And at no point did anyone ask me if this was my only criteria for comparison or why I chose to begin with quantifiable measures.
Now, personally, I don't happen to believe that the activities of a mayor of a tiny town of 5,000+, which is managed by a professional manager instead of the mayor IS a valid qualification for claiming executive experience. Nor do I see a great deal to admire in the administrative or executive career of a governor who spends a good part of her term on the campaign trail or promoting herself instead of serving as governor, before quitting.
I fail to see how academic accomplishments cease to be valid accomplishments over time, as if they had an expiration date. Certainly if the academic accomplishments are the base from which a person proceeds to have a noteworthy career after graduation, they would seem to be worth consideration.
I also fail to see how a career in the legislative branches of government, where the bills are proposed and laws passed on which the executive branch subsequently acts in governing, makes an individual somehow less competent or knowledgeable about how government works, or negates abilities to act as an executive, either in elected government or the private sector. I would argue, rather, that there are a number of areas where there is considerable overlap.
But I stopped, deciding not to continue to try to disagree as objectively as I was able, with people whose minds were closed, and whose reaction to holding a different view was insulting accusations rather than open minds and courtesy. Trying to explain myself didn't seem worth the effort; no one seemed to care. In their defence, I did characterize Palin as an individual I found trivial and superficial, using a very innocuous term, 'popsie'. That was like waving a red cape in front of an angry bull to Palin fans.
The course of the discussion, more than the subject itself, has been kicking around in my mind. As we approach the end of the calendar year, with its sentiments of peace on earth and good will to all, that failed discussion seemed antithetical to the season.
If we cannot listen to each other, or read each other's words, with an open mind and without antagonism and insult instead of attempting to understand, if there is no room for benefit of the doubt that someone might have something worthwhile to contribute........what do we have remaining?
Are the words of all of us writing in the blogosphere only to preach to the choir, are we only addressing those who already agree with us? Is there nothing left to learn from or to offer to each other? And perhaps most of concern to me, is there no point to trying to seek out fact to inform opinion............is all that matters what we want to believe, instead of what really is true?
Can there be no meeting of minds?
Following this failed attempt at discourse came an invitation to me through the Penigma2 email account, from a new web site, OpinionEditorial.com, from an editor whose job is to seek out writers who have something of substance to contribute. I was invited to write for OpEd on the basis of my recent post about Tim Pawlenty. OpEd intends to provide not a single point of view, but a range of views, in one location to appeal to readers who don't want just one side of current events.
It was a compliment to be asked to contribute; and it was encouraging that someone else found enough reason to promote different points of view to set up this new website.
With the consent of Pen, and ToE, I have recently added OpEd to the list of linked blogs on Penigma; OpEd informs me that Penigma will be added to their list of linked blogs in turn.
I have tried to look at my frustration in a constructive way, to see what I can learn from it first and foremost for my own thinking and conduct, because I have no control over anyone else. I am persuaded to let go of some of my frustration, and not to be discouraged, but to try to continue to do my best to find a factual basis for my thinking, wherever that may lead. Perhaps most of all, I'm going to try - call it my new year's resolution for 2010 - to be more open minded myself, and more receptive to the views of others, and to really pay attention to those views to be sure I understand them before leaping to conclusions too quickly.
I hope those who enjoy Penigma will join me in that resolution.
Wishing all of our readers a safe and joyous occasion, whichever holiday you may celebrate. Join me as well in celebrating today - Winter Solstice - the day of the year with the longest period of darkness and the shortest period of daylight. The joy is in knowing there will be increasing light tomorrow and each day after. Blessed be.
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ReplyDeleteIt's very easy to not give credit when a discussion turns acrimonious. That doesn't mean it's the best choice.
ReplyDeleteI still find real value in seeking out differing opinions - on other blogs ot here. (Still waiting, you two conservative bloggers! for your first and second contributions respectively; consider this a gentle nudge!)
I prefer to believe that our friend Mitch sincerely believes Palin was responsible, for example, for cleaning up corruption in Alaska.
It sent me to checking as many independent sources as I could readily find. What I found was a bit less clear than that. Palin did resign from a committee, and subsequently filed ethics complaints against two of the members which were upheld.
What is not as widely noted is that the ethics complaints were signed jointly with a more experienced democrat, who from the comparative experience suggests to me that he probably knew more about the procedure than Palin the newcomer.
This event may also be the origin and explanation for most, if not all of the ethics complaints against Palin. All but one came from Alaskan voters, and the majority were from Republicans......not the 'obama agents' that are often blamed for them.
Further, from the reading I did, it appears the company with the dirtiest hands in that and other corruption was VECO, who paid for 10% of Palin's failed Lt.Gov. run. No idea how much they may have contributed to other funds, campaign or otherwise.
What did seem clear to me is that the greatest dent in GOP corruption clean up came from the Alaska Political Corruption Probe by the Public Integrity Section of the DOJ. Palin did sign some reform legislation, but the legislation was a bi-partisan effort.
The devil is in the details, and I do think those details are worth discussing with my friends.
At least, continuing to do so is still my resolution for 2010. I am going to do my best to hold on to that until at least Jan. 1, if not through Dec. 31 of 2010!
Ok - in the interest of crossing this chasm, I'm restating my earlier point in a more genteel way.
ReplyDeleteThe problem EACH side of the political divide faces is that it is rare, if not nearly impossible, to get anyone with political "connections" to have an honest debate. They eschew direct discussion because such discussion often does not allow for the kinds of rampant sophistry and spin that blogs so easily enable. Issues are not dug into, reasons for conduct or reasons for change, are not identified, with counterpoints given fair hearing and credit.
In your discussions with our mutual friend, I have noted, many times, that you've tried to engage in exactly the kind of discussion people who cannot afford to have the 'other' side engage in abhore. Namely, you attempt to make a series of well-investigated/researched points coming to a conclusion which is frequently difficult to avoid, let alone argue against. Our friend, rather than debate each point, and then ultimately the overall point, instead cherry-picks elements he'd prefer to focus on. Nearly always refusing to discusss the over-arching point or side-stepping if he cannot otherwise refuse to acknowledge it.
This certainly was the case with your discussion on souls. It was CLEAR from your arguments that the term "soul" is hardly universally defined, much less universally established at one point in life vs. another as a life is created and born. You offered far more evidence of research and established your bonafides in a way which our friend who frequently postures as eminently erudite, could not contravene. You then concluded that forcing the rest of society (US or otherwise) to accept what is essentially a religious (christian) definition of the soul and where life begins runs counter to the idea of individual liberty he so often otherwise embraces.
His response was to comment about people who've been shot - a non-sequitor of the first order. A two day old fetus isn't a currently living person under most people's definition, and Do Not Ressucitate orders of course will mean that medical facilities/professionals in fact will NOT do everything possible to save that life. But the telling point was that he could not argue the point about souls, and so could not challenge that there is no ubiquitous definition, so instead he shifted the argument to a tangential point - namely trying to liken a fetus to a life in jeapordy of dying due to trauma.
In my 40 plus years of observing the political meliue, I have come to the conclusion that many/most have NO interest in changing their mind or learning more other than that which butresses their core beliefs. Our friend believes in certain conservative 'values' - among them are supposed beliefs in independent liberty, yet he has advocated for things like FISA violations and suspension of habeaus corpus. His argumentation runs toward sophistry at times - in my opinion - and as evidenced by the example above - quite frankly because legitimate argument would undermine his ability to claim all (or nearly all and he nearly always does not qualify his comments) liberals are stupid, and thru stupidity, embrace totalitarianism. The irony that his (and other conservatives) opinions are often simplistic is of no concern, and any argumentation which disabuses him (or those like him) of this notion is frankly unwelcome - he may acknowledge YOU alone as competent, but he ducks your points and won't extend that courtesy to others nor observe that it might well be true in the main.
"all conservative women are bashed by liberals"
ReplyDeleteAll conservative women are conservatives. All conservatives are bashed by liberals. Therefore all conservative women are bashed by liberals.
It's really that simple, and it is about the politics and not the character.
Regarding the effect of discourse in general, I believe that argumentation is something that one engages in for their own personal benefit, not for the other person's. Although I find that people with listening skills are more interesting than those without them because their thoughts and opinions are much more developed.
AB - here's to listening, or at least trying to..
ReplyDeleteThere is another saying which goes something like..
"It's hard to hear anything when all you do is shout."
Conservatives seem to very frequently put forward as candidates or spokespeople, people who are photogenic (including women), but whose opinions are inartfully expressed, and more importantly, whose reasoning is under-developed and dismissive or silent on enormously important facts about the issue under discussion. They frame the discussion in a way which is highly pejorative, and equally caged to allow for no reasonable consdieration of the other side's view as worthy of discussion.
That's shouting without the increased decibel level - they refuse to hear, to see, to read, or to consider - and if that then means that liberals take from that a belief that conservative women are being put up as 'pin-up' girls - well, I think the fault lies not with the listener (the viewer) but rather with the speaker.
AB, I really enjoy your use of syllogisms (not just here) but I believe the premise asserted, at least as I understood it, was that conservative women are treated worse and differently than conservative men, in ways specific to their gender.
ReplyDeleteThat would be the only reason to single out conservative women as different from the treatment of all conservatives.
When you write: "Regarding the effect of discourse in general, I believe that argumentation is something that one engages in for their own personal benefit, not for the other person's."
I suppose it depends on how you define benefit. If you are arguing only for the sake of enjoying your own words, which is a weakness I expect is common to all of us if we were strictly honest about it, then yes. Hopefully it is not the ONLY reason for any of us.
Of course the other reasons are to challenge our own premises and assumptions, and to discover additional information that we don't already have. We can't really do that if we don't open our minds and really listen to each other. And that means admitting when someone else makes a legitimate assertion or provides a well-documented point.
Intellectual honesty means each of us needs to, sincerely, at least try to be open to genuine arguments. I suppose that is another way of defining my 2010 new year's resolution, committing to renewed intellectual honesty, as much as courtesy and open mindedness.
I think it is important to seek out other points of view. If that isn't the point to reading and viewing as wide a range of news sources and books, including the thoughts expressed on a variety of blogs, then there is small reason to write points of view except to be a thorn in someone else's side.
One of my mentors wisely advised me that everyone is smarter than the rest of us about something, and that if we really strive to be smart, we should endeavor to find out what they have to teach us. Because we can learn from everyone, if we only make the effort. I don't want to stop learning until I'm dead.
Very good post. I do, indeed, read SITD and comment once in a while.
ReplyDeleteTo start, I consider myself to be rather liberal. However, I read a political blogs from across the spectrum. I do not read or listen to 'entertainers' - O'Reilly, Beck, etc. I find it difficult to listen to Olberman, as well.
Are the words of all of us writing in the blogosphere only to preach to the choir, are we only addressing those who already agree with us?
I can only guess that a significant number of people read politically-based blogs and, unfortunately, take the information as news and so why not just read 'news' that suits their political standing? Listening and reading to conservative commentators/bloggers only hones my own beliefs, arguments, etc.
Is there nothing left to learn from or to offer to each other?
Yes, but people must be able to gleen fact from opinion and that is very difficult to do. Unfortunately, and many political commentators from all spectrums succumb to this, many commentators/bloggers gleen facts or snippets of conversations and expound on the few words spoken by 'one of them,' decry the inhumanity of the quoted person, and then generalize that 'all of them' are just horrible people.
I have been trying, and continue to search, to find a good conservative (or center right) political commentator/blogger with an open comments section who does not reduce contrary opinions to ad hominem attacks. Got any suggestions?
Soooo, the topic at hand...
I was widely insulted for valuing education, and told that this was not important, because there are other measures of accomplishment, and because the degrees were something accomplished years ago.
Hmm. How much should education matter in politics? How about in other endeavors? Physicians? Engineers? Why not in politicians? How much is too little?
I would hope that the leader of the free world would be highly intelligent. But what mechanism do voters have to judge candidates' intelligence? Candidates use mass media to blast their message to voters. Can we use the 50 carefully scripted words shouted by the candidates at rallies and played over and over in political TV ads? Or how about unscripted interviews or Q&A sessions with journalists?
Guess which mechanism I use to judge the viability of candidates....
Welcome to commenting on Penigma, red Beard.
ReplyDeleteI hope you will enjoy this blog, and continue to comment here.
The thing I see about the experience debate is that both Palin and Obama were barely experienced enough to be considered as a vice presidential candidate. They had roughly equal amount of time in office, Obama in a larger state, Palin in jobs that were more executive in nature. Obama was much more polished than Palin, in large part because he had been planning on running and groomed for it for 4 yrs compared to her 4 weeks.
ReplyDeleteAs far as all the ethics stuff I read several back issues of a couple of Alaskan newspapers to get a feel for it and it was not so much that she started the anti-corruption stuff but she was one of only 2 or 3 people in the Alaskan government willing to help investigate people from her own party, all the others, democrat and republican, limited their investigations to the other party. Also the allegations against her were not seen as worthy of investigation, by a democratic senate, until she was named as McCains running mate. Starting the day before the election and going until about Dec of last yr if you watched some of the Alaskan papers all the investigations against her were quietly closed. I personally think she should have turned down McCain, stayed on as governor for the rest of her term and one other and then run in 2016. She would have been, and might still be, a formidable opponent with a bit more experience and polish.
tt,you wrote:"They had roughly equal amount of time in office, Obama in a larger state, Palin in jobs that were more executive in nature. "
ReplyDeleteSorry, I cannot give Palin any credit for significant executive experience for being mayor of Wassilla, with less than 6,000 people, run for all important purposes by a hired manager. That leaves her with her 2 1/2 years as governor of a state that has a fraction of the population of the metro area of St. Paul, Minneapolis - some 600,000+ people compared to 2.8 million. I'd give her service in Alaska a comparison to being mayor of a larger city - but not the really large ones like New York, LA, Chicago, etc.
That is in comparison to Obama's serving in the Illinois state senate followed by the US Senate.
As to the ethics violations, some were settled rather than dismisssed, others are still pending. I handed researching this off to my local reference librarian, who provided me with the list of KNOWN complaints, including one just this month. Apparently there have been references made by her Alaska attorney that suggest there are others that have not been made public by the complainants, as the state is not supposed to announce the information. Are these justified? I doubt it, but more clear is that these are not the work of 'obama operatives' (nice alliteration) but seem to be primarily from within the Republican party, possibly political payback.
It may change, but for now, outside her narrow base of fans, I'd put her more in the role of novelty celeb than serous politica figure. She could change that in the next several years, but I haven't seen her heading in anything like the direction of being taken more seriously. Her choice.
I put a lot of stock in a person's accademic history as well as their career history. Obama studied law at Harvard, as did Mitt Romney. Hillary Clinton studied law at Yale.
ReplyDeletePalin studied journalism at Idaho.
For me, a POTUS candidate is much more attractive if they come from some of the best law programs America has to offer. A lot of conservatives can't relate to people with accomlished (or "elitist") backgrounds, and would rather vote for someone they can relate to rather than someone with extensive training and experience in the legislative process.
The only reason Palin was picked was becuase McCain was desperate. She was his Hail Mary attempt to steal moderate Clinton supporters from Obama. So he put up someone who was inexperienced and grossly uneducated in a high position.
So Palin was put in her position because she was a woman. The liberal response was due to her history and not her gender. The association between gender and experience is indirect and accidental. [Perhaps it illuminates a gender gap in higher learning, but that's a different argument altogether.]
This eliminates Palin as a valid example of liberals reacting to a candidate based on her gender. Without this example the argument that they do so holds no water.
TTuck,
ReplyDeleteI have to agree with DG on this. Palin's experience was a paucity of actual work - coupled with her less than stellar (by comparison) education CV, she simply wasn't in the same plane as Obama, and it showed dramatically.
GWB, by comparison, had limited experience at best as well. He was governor of Texas to be sure, but in a mostly figurehead role. Contrastingly, he WAS groomed for about 2 years to run for President, and groomed by his father's friends, from Condi Rice to Dick Cheney. I don't think there are legimitate claims of similar kinds of groomsmanship with Obama, but I'd be interested to hear any.
In any event, Obama's decision making is clearly deliberate and careful. By contrast, Palin has shown herself ill-prepared and knee-jerk, often shooting herself in the foot as she shoots off her mouth.
There really aren't any equivelancies that I can agree upon other than purely time in a state-wide role, except that as a State Sentator, Obama had more time in that as well.
RedBeard, welcome to Penigma! Posting here, like drinking Irish Whiskey, should be done liberally and often :) (no offense to anyone abstaining from alchohol :)>).
AB wrote:"A lot of conservatives can't relate to people with accomlished (or "elitist") backgrounds, and would rather vote for someone they can relate to rather than someone with extensive training and experience in the legislative process."
ReplyDeleteYou may very well be right AB in your observation about what makes some conservatves comfortable and uncomfortable, but I don't see anything in conservative ideology that fundamentally should be anti-higher education.
I have been trying to make sense in my own mind if this is just a pretext for disliking someone who 1)won, beating them fairly conclusively; or 2)if there is some other fear / antipathy at work. I am struck by certain contradictions, that so far, I cannot explain to my own satisfaction.
These same conservatives had no problem with an ivy league school when either G.H.W. Bush OR G.W. Bush attended. I didn't hear a single peep from conservatives against it, while I heard a lot of 'kvetching' about Clinton's.
There are conservatives whom I like and whom I respect even in disagreement. But in this kind of discussion, I keep coming back in my own mind to the inconsistencies.
Those inconsistencies seem to point, over and over, to conservatives being willing to embrace anyone who conforms to their 'culture war' positions without critical evaluation, while criticising inconsistently and with a double standard anyone who doesn't conform or agree.
I continue to try to persuade myself otherwise, because that would render real discussion, and an exchange based on honest ideas relatively moot, if all that is really up for consideration is conformity.
I usually enjoy an exchange between intellects; it is an almost sensual exercise of the mind. But instead lately it has become a frustrating experience instead.
That is why I want to be reflective (not reflexive) over the holidays, to self-examine my own thinking as critically as I can, and depending on what I find, I may feel a need to pry my own mind open a bit. If I'm going to venture an observation critical of someone else, it is something very important I look at in myself as well. And to encourage everyone else to consider it too, to improve discussion in 2010. I don't have the sense that I'm the only person with this frustration.
RedBeard, welcome to Penigma! Posting here, like drinking Irish Whiskey, should be done liberally and often :) (no offense to anyone abstaining from alchohol :)>).
ReplyDeleteThanks and glad to be aboard. Single malt is my vice of choice, although the Prosecco I served with my 'Hen on her nest' meal today was about perfect...