Friday, October 22, 2010

Juan Williams and Rick Sanchez, Adios, and Good Riddance

On September 30th, Rick Sanchez, formerly a news commenter on CNN, made an offensive outburst in which he called comedian / pundit Jon Stewart, who is Jewish, a bigot, and made anti-Semitic statements about Jews generally in the media industry.

This week Juan Williams was fired from NPR, for having made offensive statements about Muslims and fear.


The stories intrigued me both because of their similarities and differences, and because Rick Sanchez has a Minnesota connection.

Similarities:
Rick Sanchez is 52, was born in Cuba; Juan Williams is 56, and was born in Panama.  Sanchez came with his family to this country when he was 2; Juan Williams came to this country with his family when he was 4 years old.  Both pursued careers in journalism, Sanchez in broadcasting, Williams initially in the print media before moving to broadcasting.  Sanchez grew up  in Florida, and went to college in Minnesota on a scholarships. Williams grew up in New York, and went to college in Pennsylvania, on scholarships.  Both men have been quite public about their experiences with discrimination for their Hispanic ethnicity, and in the case of Williams also for being black.  Both men like to promote the notion that because they were themselves victims of discrimination, they are apparently immune to being held responsible for practicing any form of bigotry, rather than being evaluated on the content of their statements the same way other people are evaluated, regardless of their backgrounds.

I don't accept that double standard, and neither should anyone else, as an excuse or justification for making stupid or biased or offensive comments.

Both men have worked long enough in the news business to understand the professional ethics of impartiality, and to be well aware of the requirements of the various news media employers.  See the recent post I wrote about the prohibitions on participation in the Jon Stewart Rally for an example of the importance of both being impartial and appearing to be impartial and as unbiased as possible.  These are not sudden, new expectations, they are well known industry standards (except as practiced by Fox-Not-the-News, which routinely ignores journalism ethics, presenting misinformation as sort-of-news, calling it entertainment only when challenged sufficiently to back down).

There was a pushback from Jon Stewart over the firing of Rick Sanchez by CNN for his remarks, in a variety of venues including this interview on Larry King Show.  There has been pushback over the firing of Juan Williams by public figures loosely associated with journalism, like Barbara Walters.  And of course, Fox News, where Williams had been a recurring personality; Fox News promptly hired Williams with a multi-million dollar salary deal.  Sanchez has expressed a desire to return to CNN.

What Sanchez said was offensive to many people, even if Jon Stewart was more tolerant and forgiving of the comments.  If the same statement was made by someone who was not a person associated with a different minority experience, they would have been excoriated.  No one would have objected to the firing.

I object to this double standard.  I WAS offended by Sanchez' remarks, and I believe they go directly to his ability to continue to be a broadcaster for CNN.  Stewart has been highly critical, both of the quality of broadcasting from Sanchez, and of CNN.  It seem wrong to me for Stewart to assert that Sanchez should not have been fired for violating industry ethics, while faulting CNN for not being a better network that employed a person performing poorly.  I don't believe Sanchez was only fired for the comments he made, but rather that he had been failing and his comments - like Lou Dobb's before him - had precipitated his firing as a catalyst.  When an event like that occurs, it is wrong to fault the catalyst  for the result.

Williams has left NPR which overall has a much better reputation as a serious news organization, for Fox which is a bad joke everywhere but among the far right.  I am cynical enough to believe that the only value Williams has to Fox News IS his previous association with NPR.  I have yet to come across reports of any other broadcasting organization with legitimate credentials making offers to either Williams or Sanchez.  That doesn't suggest to me that either gentleman is as well regarded any longer in their profession as they once were.

Differences:
There has been an effort on the part of Fox to give Williams cover for his Muslim comments.  Personally, his demonstration of ignorance deeply offends me every bit as much as Sanchez's anti-semitism.  Williams should have been well aware that the people who have engaged in terrorism against this country, and against our allies in other countries like the UK, Canada, France, and Germany, have NOT been obvious terrorists by appearing in 'muslim dress'.   By Muslim dress, presumably Williams means the clothing of their native country, as THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A UNIVERSAL MUSLIM CLOTHING.  The terrorists appear in the same western clothing as other people who are not Muslim. The very notion that you can identify someone's religion in most cases by their clothing is absurd, with the exceptions of certain clergy, or certain communities like some sects of the Amish or Chassidic Jews, where the clothing is an expression of a larger culture, not only their religion.  I very much doubt that Mr. Williams could identify correctly the clothing worn in the countries that he claims frighten him.  That ignorance, that failure to have a factual basis for his derogatory bias, makes him a bigot.  It marks him as a bigot for making assumptions without fact, for believing terrible things about a large group of people without a reasonable basis.  Mr. Williams was an xenophobic and as islamophobic in his remarks as anything said by the faux Rev. Jones who wanted to burn the Korans on 9/11.

Both Williams and Sanchez have disgraced themselves, and discredited their former employers.  Both have expressed racist, religiously intolerant, and inaccurate statements about broad groups of people who deserve better treatment.  That these are their personal attitudes intrudes on their ability to use their personal judgement in doing their jobs.  It does not violate their first amendment rights; no government entity is censoring them or punishing them.  Their employers are entitled to exercise their contractual rights for at-will employment.  These contractual rights are not new, they are not a surprise, they were agreed to by both men when they signed on to those organizations.

It is not surprising that Fox-Not-the-News network is trying to demonize NPR for political correctness.  Fox has made a LOT of money pandering and peddling moral panic islamophobia to their viewers.  It is not in their interest to be either fair or balanced.  That wouldn't sell overpriced collectible gold coins and other junk to their viewers.  Fox-Not-News/Nut-News is the last sanctuary for disgraced bigots.

32 comments:

  1. Terry,

    Epic fail, do you really believe that's what she said?

    Stop trying to put words in her mouth. William's comments were bigotted, no different than ADMITTING to being nervous when you see a group of blacks across the street. It may be HONEST BIGOTRY, but it is still bigotry.

    DG's point, which you seem to have missed, is that Williams knew full well what the limits of his profession are and aren't. He chose, with full opportunity to censure his own comments, to say something he knew would be a problem and did it anyway.

    Faux News hired him to thumb it's nose at NPR and to pander to the nuts who listen to it. William's took the job for a paycheck. Net result, a company fired an at-will employee for misconduct and poor judgement, Faux used it to grandstand, and Williams got a job where he's sold his soul. That's not the same as Sanchez, but it doesn't make it any less wrong or is that how you'd PREFER bigotted comments get handled? Companies grandstand and the commenter gets paid?

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  2. Yes Terry, in some important ways I do.

    What Rick Sanchez said is something that has been claimed repeatedly in the 19th, 20th, and now 21st century about Jews.

    I have no idea if Mr. Sanchez had a bad experience with a single individual who happened to be Jewish, and decided to then believe this rationale -- and extrapolate it to other people as a generality. Of if he just believed the old historic bigoted canard without that experience, and used it to target Jon Stewart for being Jewish.

    I don't really care, honestly, why someone is anti-semitic. I simply oppose it.

    Here are a couple of the recent readers of Penigma, from our statcounter. I considered how someone from a Muslim country, possibly Muslim themselves, might feel hearing or reading Juan William's comments about their clothing. I considered that as a pretty good way for NPR to think about how they would appear worldwide and to Muslims in the US as a credible news organization that tried to be fair and objective. Because BELIEVE that what Juan Williams said is now known world wide, and believe that it is also understood world wide that Juan Williams made the statement in defense and support of an islamophobic statement made by Bill O'Reilly, on a network which hypes the moral panic of islamophobia for profit.

    This first one was the most recent reader when I logged on. The others are from among the largely US, and other English speaking national readership from the most recent period.

    Cairo, Al Qahirah, Egypt
    Te Data (41.238.xx.xx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym: September 4th in History

    Constantine, Algeria
    Algerie Telecom - Fawri (41.107.xxx.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym: Moral Panic, and the Right's Culture Wars
    (the actual statcounter comes with a tiny flag of the country)

    Kashan, Fars, Iran, Islamic Republic Of
    Sepanta Communication Development Co. Ltd (85.133.xxx.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    Penigma -- رمز و راز ، تحت نام مستعار : در دفاع از قانون اساسی ایالات متحده امریکا
    Penigma -- رمز و راز ، تحت نام مستعار : در دفاع از قانون اساسی ایالات متحده امریکا

    Jakarta, Jakarta Raya, Indonesia
    Pt Telkom Indonesia (125.160.xxx.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym:

    Tashkent, Toshkent, Uzbekistan
    Adsl & Radio Internet Network (89.146.xxx.xx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym:

    (continued)

    ReplyDelete
  3. (continued)

    Cupang, Rizal, Philippines
    Philippine Long Distance Telephone (124.105.xx.xx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym: September 4th

    Tangerang, Jawa Barat, Indonesia
    Pt. Telecomunikasi Indonesia (118.96.xx.xx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym

    Khartoum, Al Khartum, Sudan
    Sudani Mdsl (41.218.x.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym:

    Gizeh, Al Jizah, Egypt
    Te Data (41.239.xxx.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym:

    Mashhad, Khorasan, Iran, Islamic Republic Of
    Tehran Infrastructure (95.38.xxx.xx)

    Dakar, Senegal
    Sonatel (41.214.56.87) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym

    Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, India
    Beam Telecom Pvt Ltd (183.82.xxx.xxxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym: Moral Panic, and the Right's Culture Wars

    Paramaribo, Suriname
    Telecommunicationcompany Suriname - Telesur (190.98.xxx.xx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym

    South Africa
    University Of Botswana (196.2.xx.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym

    Petaling Jaya, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
    Maxis Communications Bhd (121.123.xx.xxx) [Label IP Address]

    Velluru, Tamil Nadu, India
    Vasai Cables Pvt. Ltd., Thane (202.89.xx.xxx) [Label IP Address]

    Cebu, Cebu City, Philippines
    Bayantel Dsl Infrastructure (203.115.xxx.xxx) [Label IP Address]
    A Penigma - a mystery, under a pseudonym

    I don't know that any or all of these readers are muslim or not. We have also similarly had readers from Israel, and Jewish readers in the U.S.

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  4. conclusion:

    And YES, I do consider not ony how I feel faced with different cultures, including clothing; I consider how they feel faced with us. I consider how they regard our attitudes, do they see us as fearful xenophobes, or openminded fair people who overide a fearful first reaction with intellectual evaluation when we look at others.

    Juan Williams made multiple errors - what he said, without that overide assumptions with intellect caveat, (effectively saying those feelings are ok, when they are not); giving cover to fox not-news's purveying rampant bigoted islamophobia by supporting their frequently stated comments by their 'personalities' with his statement of fear; and by not being mindful of his obligations as a journalist - not an entertainer like Garrison Keillor - to be openminded and fair, not biased, so far as that is possible for any of us to do.

    So, yes. Both statements were stupid, narrow-minded, and made bad assumptions about entire groups of people numbering not in the millions but in the billions that are not warranted, that are not justified, that are not legitimate or valid.

    There ARE extremists - Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, and on and on, in many (probably most) religions of the world. Those are the people who are extremists, the ones who believe themselves to be the only people who have 'it' right, and therefore consider themselves empowered to do all manner of evil and violent things 'for our own good' (salvation.....fill in the blank).

    Actually, the only religion I don't think of as having their own version of dangerous extremists is Buddhists....and I should probably check on them.

    It may be how Mr. Williams feels; but that is not enough. Fears are emotional, not rational. We need to alter our emotions by being rational, by asking ourselves if a feeling is appropriate or reasonable.

    I don't believe that someone wearing the clothing of their country or culture, where the predominant religion might be muslim, IS a rational, reasonable basis for fear. Part of that is the fact that those who have committed acts of terrorism haven't dressed in that kind of clothing. Part of that is a profound awareness of how many good and decent people reside in those other countries in the world, just as good and decent people live here despite our occasional home-grown extremist who commits acts of terror.

    It is a habit of thought and action that separates me from the fear based Republican and Tea Partiers promoting Moral Panic.

    You should try it some time. It is very liberating and even invigorating.

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  5. One addendum - I make a distinction between behavioral profiling, which I understand the Israelis have refined and used very successfully. THAT is different than the kind of profiling - or assumptions of any kind - that are based on superficial appearances, familiar or exotic (to us). I'm all in favor of drawing logical and informed conclusions about behavior. However most of us - myself included - are not sufficiently trained in that area of expertise to do so. I applaud those who are that are working so diligently to keep us safe.

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  6. I think that the reaction of NPR in this case was extreme. This is not dissimilar to the raw deal that the federal worker got from someone taking a small snippet of a speech.

    In our society today, we have become so politically correct that we often censor ourselves in ways which are inappropriate. I don't Mr. Williams was not on Faux "News" as an NPR employee.

    I also use the rule that those who are without sin should cast the first stone here. How many of any of us can honestly say they have NEVER, EVER in their life said something which could be construed as bigoted? Few, if any.

    I'm NOT a supporter of Faux "News" by any means. I don't consider them to be responsible journalism either. BUT, in a profession which prides itself on the right of people to express their opinions and feelings, it seems to me that they have violated that very essence.

    I usually donate generously to my local NPR station. I have decided that I will not, for now, renew my pledge, because I'm quite frankly disgusted at how this was handled.

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  7. Toe wrote: "This is not dissimilar to the raw deal that the federal worker got from someone taking a small snippet of a speech."

    With respect dear sir, it is different. I listened to the whole speech as well as the snippet of that lady. She went on to describe in the context that was removed how she acted precisely as I suggest, deciding to overcome her prejudice, her gut emotion, and acting differently.

    Juan Williams, in contrast, did not. Nor was the lady making her speech where she was quoted in support of someone who was making claims about white people behaving badly, in a venue that either habitually bashed white people as a group, or made money from doing so. Nor did she take a couple of million dollars to 'switch sides'.

    One of the incidents about which I thought long and hard in forming my opinion over this was in fact the example of Ms Sherrod, who I thought acted with dignity and tremendous grace in her statements and in her actions at the time of the events, and in the later controversy surrounding the controversy of those statements. She did everything that Williams did not.

    Had Mr. Williams emulated Ms. Sherrod, my feelings would be quite different.

    I'm sorry you chose not to support NPR after this, if only because they offer so very much more in the balance even if you do continue to disagree with this action.

    As to any of us making statements which could be construed to be bigoted? I make a distinction, dear sir, between public statements in the media, and private thoughts; and between the higher ethical limitations on journalists regarding their efforts to be objective versus those of us not in such a profession.

    Had Mr. Williams said this as a private statement not a media statement, I might feel differently. But my greater objection is that Mr. Williams, unlike Ms. Sherrod, did not overide his poor first emotion with his reason, and that he adamantly stood by it. Ms. Sherrod did not hang on to her poor initial reaction with a death grip, she moved past it. No so Williams.

    It is that better reason triumphing over unreasoning fear that I am advocating.

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  8. DG, with all due respect, you're not correct. Mr. Williams made it clear that he did not consider all muslims a threat.

    And, by the standards you've held up here, the statement by Ms. Schiller, the head of NPR who apparently approved the decision to fire Mr. Williams, are equally inappropriate, and should lead to her dismissal.

    I think I agree with a number of republicans, that its time to pull the plug on public financing for NPR. I know that as long as they have a censorship policy such that they have, I won't be supporting them.

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  9. Toe wrote: "DG, with all due respect, you're not correct. Mr. Williams made it clear that he did not consider all muslims a threat."

    I watched the clips of Mr. Williams several times - some clips were longer than others - to form a sense of the context of his comments before forming my opinion.

    Juan Williams, reluctantly, as a passing single sentence acknowledged that yeah, maybe all muslims are not a threat.

    But he expended far, FAR more time and energy in his statements engaging in the premise that his fear of anyone in muslim 'garb' was reasonable and justified, and in supporting Bill O'Reilly's essentially islamophobic 'they killed us on 9/11' position.

    Ms. Sherrod made it clear in her statements, and in her actions at the time she first had her feelings, that those feelings were not going to determine how she acted, or how she continued to feel.

    What I took away from the clips of Juan Williams was that on any flight he will be uneasy the entire time someone he believes to be Muslim is present on the same flight, every flight, every single time, and that he sees no reason he or anyone else should feel otherwise.

    Certainly I did not see Mr. Williams for example acknowledge that no one who has attacked us as terrorists was dressed in any clothing other than 'western dress'.

    The tenor of his subsequent comments has been much more of the 'well, sure some of them might not be terrorists, but a lot of them are' mode. His overall position, and the position taken on Fox News, was that fear of muslims IS in fact reasonable and acceptable.

    It is NOT.

    Had Williams gone on to say such fear should be challenged, such fear was irrational, I would agree that Williams acted as Ms. Sherrod had.

    He did not, ever, anywhere that I have seen indicate that he thought his feeling fear was wrong, that fearing muslims generally was wrong. Instead we are left with the impression that there might be some 'good ones', but you can't tell them from the many 'bad ones', so you should, in fact be afraid of all of them.

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  10. This is all the more poignant in the face of Barak Obama cancelling a visit to the Sikh golden temple, where he would have been required - as a routine mandatory religious courtesy - to wear a turban to enter. I doubt very many of my fellow Americans KNOW there is a difference between Sikhs and Muslims, or could tell the difference between 'Sikh garb'and 'Muslim garb'.

    Obama is still attempting to overcome the ignorant, ill-informed and misinformed, stupid, bigoted, hateful right wing anti-muslim propaganda from the photos of him in native Kenyan clothing - ethnic clothing, not religious clothing, including headwear - when he visited his late father's family in Africa. He is not going to wear a turban, however innocently or not-muslim, on a foreign visit.

    Not because he wouldn't LIKE to visit the temple - it was originally on his itinerary. It was a potentially important diplomatic event. It would have no more been an indication of religious preference by Obama than when my own father wore a Yamuka (sp?)in Israel to enter certain Jewish sites in respect, or when we took off our shoes or washed oru hands to enter a mosque in the 'holy land'.

    No, it is because of people who think the feelings of Juan Williams are just fine, thank you. It is because the people in this country can't handle it.

    THAT saddens me. It ANGERS me, and not only because I always object to fear dominating reason.

    It is prompting me to write a new post.

    It is the reason that I feel a much stronger push-back is required from Williams, and that lacking that pushback, NPR was originally correct, and Williams was wrong.

    As to the issue of Juan Williams and NPR relative to Fox News, Williams is clearly not on Fox News on behalf of NPR, but Fox not-the-news routinely makes it clear that Williams is a journalist on NPR, on a regular basis, and that his opinion is sought because he is a recognized,credentialed NPR journalist. The emphasis on his association with NPR has been precisely because he is positioned as one of their token 'liberals' BECAUSE he is from NPR, in their superficial claim to balance. In fact they do not present any such balance, their motto is a mockery and a sham.

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  11. Terry,

    DG stole my line, but I'll use it anyway.

    George Bush's stump speech on Iraq falsely claims Iraq sought uranium in Niger and did so AFTER it had been warned this was untrue... hmmm... gee, maybe it was a calculated lie, said to get us into a needless war??

    "Why are us Moderates and Liberals forced to pay for this BS?"

    For the cost of the Iraq war, NPR could be funded for about 50,000 years from what it actually gets.

    Also, Terry, the VAST majority of public funding goes for SHOWS like Sesame Street, not for news programs. Also, public funding accounts for all of just over 10% of the funding, the rest is paid for by people like me (but not you). You instead tangentially give to Faux News by watching its sponsorship (commercials) thus generating viewership for which Faux gets to charge advertisers. You pay for the crap they spew - but so do I, because they drag the debate off into the gutter, sort of like how you have done with this last comment.

    You pay for NPR because the majority of the country (by way of representation) agreed to fund public broadcasting. It's called basic agreement to live in a representative democracy.

    If the quality of YOUR news someday exceeds NPR, then come talk to me, but until it does, until you seem to care about accuracy and fairness, please, save me the sanctimony and belly-aching - you neither appear to care about truth nor fairness and instead seem to care only that any voice which disagrees with you be squelched.

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  12. I think the issue isn't that you use the term "bigot" too often, but rather that they are too often bigotted and don't much like you pointing it out for them. The truth doesn't hurt, but the embarrassment it causes sometimes smarts.

    Bill Maher recently made an even stronger comment than Williams, and his guests rightly called him on it (well, ok, some of them did). The difference was that HIS guests were willing to, O'Reilly simply glad-handed Williams because Williams' comments supported anti-muslim bias as being acceptable. That's the same experience you're seeing on SiTO, they go there for sanctuary and to not feel like objectionable bigots, and you keep pointing out that while they may have their club, it's still not far removed from being the Minnesota version of Ku Klux Klan of anti-muslim intolerance. Mitch has, at times, said that Islam supports terrorism, that there was no need to understand the difference between Shiites and Sunnis, and that there was no reason to need to understand the difference between secular Sunnis and Wahabbis. His ignorance is so manifest it's laughable, yet he OBJECTS to being called a bigot when he pontificates on what needs to be done to solve a problem he so clearly doesn't understand? Talk about bigotted paternalism. LOL!

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  13. George Bush's stump speech on Iraq falsely claims Iraq sought uranium in Niger and did so AFTER it had been warned this was untrue... hmmm... gee, maybe it was a calculated lie, said to get us into a needless war??

    This is why I rarely respond to your posts and comments, Pen.
    Bush did not have a "stump speech on Iraq". Therefore Bush never had a "stump speech on Iraq falsely claims Iraq sought uranium in Niger"
    In order to respond to a comment like this I would have to unwind layer after layer of strawmen, question-begging, and outright falsehoods. I simply do not have the time.
    You would be better informed, Pen, if you would review HJR 114 (the congressional "declaration of war" with Iraq) and recall that our current sec retary of state voted for it. Obviously she did not vote for HJR 114 based on a mythical "stump speech" by Bush.

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  14. You are correct Terry, that it was not a 'stump speech'. It was much worse, it was a claim made in the 2003 State of the Union Address.

    As to the facts of that statement - or lack thereof - I offer this from FactCheck.org:
    http://www.factcheck.org/bushs_16_words_on_iraq_uranium.html

    Sec State Hillary Clinton and others have repeatedly asserted with apparent justification that they voted for a number of things based on factually flawed information and / or based on deliberately outright lies they were supplied. There has been some support in investigation results for claims about deliberate attempts to misinform Congress - both houses.

    As to Williams' firing - I refer you to the post from yesterday written by Pen. He properly identified what it was the Williams did wrong that merited firing, expanding on this post.

    My dear friend Sara is employed by a major financial institution specifically to review the kind of statements made in public, for sales purposes, but also for other purposes, BECAUSE of the good and necessary restrictions on what people say when they identify themselves as employed by an organization or company.

    Perhaps you are simply less aware of how those restrictions operate, working as an engineer. And why it is important and necessary that they do.

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  15. Dog Gone-
    When Pen's comment begins with a false assertion ("stump speech") and you respond with a reference to factcheck.org, that shows, again, why it is a waste of time to respond to Pen's comments.

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  16. Oh good grief. Factcheck.org says Bush was not lying about Saddam seeking uranium from Niger.


    http://www.factcheck.org/bushs_16_words_on_iraq_uranium.html

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  17. Terry, seriuosly - you want to play fact check games with me?

    factcheck.org says that Bush was not necessarily lying in the 2003 state of the union address, but -- if you did read all of it -- he was advised that claim was not reliable and should not be in there, but said it anyway.

    SUBSEQUENTLY, LONG LONG LONG after Bush knew it was not true, he continued to make that claim and similar claims -- undeniably LYING to the public.

    So we have inaccurate claims about information intentionally being made to Congress when the intelligence community asserted there were problems with it - and members of congress believing the President and his advisors, and voting accordingly.

    We have BUSH continuing the same lies when it was evident that it was not true, only YEARS later admitting it was not the case when he was backed into a corner and couldn't lie anymore. He didn't tell the truth willingly.

    Sheesh Terry - why do you think honorable men like Gen. Colin Powell were so angry with him and continue to be unhappy with him?

    Do you LIKE being lied to Terry? I don't. Bush LIED, even if it started out simply being inaccurate information. He continued lying until he was stopped by others; he didn't choose to stop lying or to tell the truth.

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  18. Terry said (twice)....

    "This is why (followed by ad hominem targetted at me and at DG)." In his ad hominem, Terry attacked me for use of a strawman, and not just one use, but unending use. This coming from a guy who routinely writes in support of a blog which makes comments like "I've never met a conservative who was a racist" and "Anti-Semitism is a key tenent of the American Left."

    Given that the blog we're referring to (Shot in the Dark) is a continuing diatribe of sophistry, misdirection, misstatement, and wilful deception, complaints from a fan of that blog of strawmen, incorrect statements, etc... seems a little ironic, or more than a little.

    Terry, on this blog, we try to encourage tactful (to the extent possible) discourse. Your replies really weren't that. Regardless, I'm going to address your complaint in two parts.

    First, you complained about paying for NPR, for whic I rightly complained about a FAR greater travesty and waste of funds. You failed to address the complaint, instead you myopically focused on a difference of no distinction - I said BUSH SAID IN A STUMP SPEECH - ok, you're right, it was his Vice President, Cheney, who made the incorrect comments, and it was only the Bush ADMINISTRATION which was warned the comments were in error. Are you seriously trying to suggest the point is invalid (that we wasted funds some of us disagreed with spending) over the fact that I didn't say CHENEY vs. Bush? Isn't Bush responsible for what occurs on his watch?

    The point is Terry, you're trifling with nothing and deflecting the argument to trivia and irrelevance. Seemingly you're doing it to deflect from having your complaint (the orginal one about spending funds) from being shown to be either hypocritical or...

    Foolish, and I'm not calling you foolish, just the complaint, because the rest of the comment I made was about the fact that in a representative democracy, laws get passed, and money gets spent, and we don't get to control every penny, and THAT's why you pay for NPR, which is a helluva lot less expense to you than ME paying for a war which was entered into under false premise. To wit..

    http://motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/karl-rove-book-george-bush-iraq-wmd

    However, I'll gladly and happly repay you for your expense to for NPR if you'll repay me for the Iraq war. I believe your cost per year for NPR is rougly $1.50, where as my personal expense for the Iraq war (in terms of national debt) is 4/300,000,000*500,000,000,000.00 or $6,667.00.

    When you complain about waste and undesirable expense, I'm happy to have the discussion. Just remember, one man's ox is another man's dinner.

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  19. Terry, if you wish to quibble with when and where Bush - or Cheney or any of the other members of the Bush administration made a statement, please simply provide that challege, with a reliable source.

    As to my providing factcheck.org - what objection do you have to that in a discussion?

    Effectively Terry, you are apparenlty willing to fault Hillary Clinton for voting for the Iraq war based on being provided with false or unreliable information presented as reliable -I believe at least one case used the phrase 'slam dunk'. But you are unwilling to fault 'W' for waging a war he sold to the public based on misinformation, misinformation which was challenged -- challenged HARD - by our own and other intelligence sources.

    You can't have it both ways, that you give Bush a pass, but fault Clinton for relying on Bush admin intel.

    Here is a timeline for confirmation that the WMD's were not there.

    http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB80/

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/library/news/iraq/2008/01/iraq-080124-irna01.htm

    Care to challenge that statements factually wrong - deliberately wrong - lies in fact continued to be made Terry?

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200499,00.html

    One of the earliest occasions when Bush admitted there were no WMDs, but tried to tap dance his way through justifying the Iraq war:

    http://usliberals.about.com/b/2006/08/21/bush-admits-iraq-had-no-weapons-of-mass-destruction-no-link-to-911.htm

    I particularly appreciate FindLaw.com; that is one of the reasons it is on our blog roll. Note the dates when Bush claims were unravelling in 2003 --- and then note how long Bush tried to keep the lies going into 2007, alternately buck passing instead of taking the responsiblity that was HIS, no one else's.

    http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030606.html

    Bush didn't want to admit the truth because he would not have had as strong a position as incumbent in the 2004 election; nothign more, nothing less. This was self-serving dishonesty.

    The Bush administration made a serie of decisions - like the Cheney promoted outsourcing of many aspects of the wars - which harmed our armed forces by giving them worse services, at higher prices, while we were rampantly overbilled...like the billions in fraud and overbillig by oh, say Halliburton among others?

    And you want to quibble about the limited government funding of NPR, which hasn't killed anyone, and which arguably is far more useful to this country?

    Bring on the fact checking Terry. Please.

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  20. Pen:
    The war making powers of the federal government are rooted in natural law and the U.S. constitution, and are heavily commented on (in the Federalist Papers) by the people who actually wrote the constitution. Great care was taken to insure that a declaration of war had the support of the people.
    The war-making power of a sovereign state is not an American invention. Virtually every country on the planet makes some provision for its defense.
    On the other hand you have the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, a project launched in 1967 by a democrat president and a democrat congress. There is no constitutional or "natural law" justification for the creation and maintenance of a public broadcasting network.
    That is why comparing public spending on CPB (which you approve of) and the Iraq War (which you do not approve of) is dumb.

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  21. factcheck.org says that Bush was not necessarily lying in the 2003 state of the union address, but . . .


    This is what the factcheck.org article says:

    Bush's "16 Words" on Iraq & Uranium: He May Have Been Wrong But He Wasn't Lying
    July 26, 2004
    Updated: August 23, 2004
    Two intelligence investigations show Bush had plenty of reason to believe what he said in his 2003 State of the Union Address.


    http://www.factcheck.org/bushs_16_words_on_iraq_uranium.html

    It does not say that Bush "was not neccessarily lying", it says "He Wasn't Lying".

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  22. Terry, by your cafeteria style approach to the constitution, we shouldn't have an air force, or a marine corps either - they are not specified in the constitution.

    And we should still have slavery, and women shouldn't vote, if you stick strictly to the document written by the founding fathers.

    You can justify NPR legislation under the preamble of the constitution:
    "We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

    as insure domestic tranquility, promote the general welfare and secure the blessing of liberty.

    I will defer to my dear colleague ToE to elaborate on the constitution.

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  23. You cherry picked the factcheck article Terry.

    It makes clear that Bush should not have included that staement in the state of the union speech; he was advised not to do so, but he chose to do so anyway, overstating the certainty of the information - a kind of lie.

    He did not later correct that misinformation when he knew it was false - making those words a later lie by ommission.

    I know you and I are both Lutheran; we should share an understanding of what a lie of ommission is - not correcting something or not providing key information so as to deceive someone into believing something false.

    Or.......do you disagree with what constitutes a lie of ommission? What Bush said in that speech was the first part of what is essential to a lie of omission, false, or overstated, or partial information; what he did later by not admitting and correcting it completed that lie. Subsequent documents showed the administration KNEW this was false in June of 2003; neither Bush nor any member of his administration said so at that time. They let the statement stand, as a lie, after they knew it was untrue.

    I think overstating the evidence, AND not correcting a misstatement more than qualify as lying, Terry.

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  24. The preamble to the US Constitution, while a noble piece of prose, actually has no legal meaning. It gives the reasoning for the people ordaining the constitution, but it does not grant any powers to congress, nor does it withhold any powers.

    Congress has the authority to fund NPR stemming from Congress' broad powers under the commerce clause and the right to introduce general welfare legislation found in the enabling clause (Article I, Section 8).

    I agree with Terry that Congress should stop funding for NPR, but I don't agree that it should do so for the reasons that Terry states. In fact, I think Terry's reasoning here is a bit off point. Congress' ability to fund NPR has nothing to do with the war in Iraq.

    I do believe that Congress should stop funding NPR because NPR has, in my opinion, violated the very journalistic ethics of which it accused Mr. Williams. Mr. Williams made a comment with which NPR disagreed. They may have ben within their legal right to do so, but they violated all sorts of moral responsibilities in doing so. They have essentially committed the very hypocracy that I regularly accuse many conservatives of doing, everyone's opinion is right as long as they agree with you. I believe it was Penigma who made the argument that Congressional funding should continue for news and that personal contributions don't fund the news functions of NPR. During our recent fund drive here, they stressed repeatedly, over and over, how much of the funding donated went to the News and Talk portions of their programming. It was huge.

    I am honestly quite sick of the political correctness that seems to have invaded our culture. One of the reasons good people don't run for public office is that one off-color joke, told 2 decades ago, can derail a political campaign. One slip at the mike, even for a moment, can result in an executive forced to resign, etc. I'm not suggesting that we go back to segregation or a lack of civil rights.. but sometimes, enough is enough.

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  25. All I can say, Dog Gone, is that you must be joking. You really seem to believe that whatever you deem to be good & progressive -- a political determination -- must be found somewhere in the constitution.
    Do you know and understand the difference between enumerated and unenumerated powers? What a constitutional amendment is? What the Bill of Rights is?
    Article I section 8 gives congress the responsibility for raising armies, a navy, and militias, and funding them.
    The slavery issue was settled by a terrible and bloody Civil War, not by a vote and not by a court. The 19th Amendment gave women the right to vote.
    Do you really believe that funding the CPB is somehow required by the Constitution?

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  26. ToE-

    The reason that the Iraq War entered the discussion was either Pen's or Dog Gone's (I forget which) assertion that it was fair to make conservatives pay for NPR with their tax dollars because liberals were forced to pay for the Iraq War with their own tax dollars.

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  27. I'm sorry if I wasn't sufficiently clear earlier.

    Congress is under no obligation to pay for NPR. Its actually under no obligation to pay for an Army or Navy (or Air Force or Marines)... it merely has the authority to do so. Again, I'm not suggesting that Congress SHOULD fund NPR. I happen to believe that they should not... where we differ is the reasons, I think.

    I find that NPR is guilty of censorship that I would not be surprised coming from Faux "News"... and I'm disappointed that an organization such as NPR, who I respected greatly up until this point, stooped to what I consider political correctness journalism.

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  28. Terry,

    While I'm at it, I'm fairly certain Dog Gone is cognizant of the differences between the enumerated and implied powers of Congress. I'm reasonably certain she's read the Constitution enough times that she knows the process of amendment, etc.

    Article I, Section 8 is the enumerated powers of Congress clause. It gives Congress a lot of power, even if until recently that power was mainly confined to things such as defense and regulating international matters. However, Congress does have the power to pass measures for the general welfare, and they do have the power under the commerce clause to do a lot of other things as well. That's well established constitutional doctrine, and no amount of twisting the Constitution will show differently.

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  29. I know you and I are both Lutheran;
    But I am LCMS, you know, the good Lutherans!

    I really don't know (or care) if Bush thought that Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake from Niger or not. If you read HJR 114 you will quickly come to the conclusion that WMD was one of many reasons the House and the Senate approved the use of military force against Iraq.
    My own opinion is that Bush, acting on advice of his father, and Blair, and Colin Powell, overplayed the WMD issue because Bush I, Blair, and Powell knew that WMD was a hot-button issue at the UN and the Security Council would authorize force only if that argument were used (rather than Iraq's record of genocide and ignoring SC resolutions and violating the terms of the 1991 cease fire).
    Bush had good arguments for using military force against Iraq without the chimera of WMD (see HJR114, Clinton's remarks while he was in office, etc.) The WMD issue was a distraction.
    Getting lefties to admit this is as difficult as getting them to admit that Clinton's non-UN-approved war with Serbia makes him a war criminal. Or that Wesley Clarke's bombing campaign against civilian targets made him a war criminal.

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  30. DG wrote:I know you and I are both Lutheran;
    Terry wrote:
    But I am LCMS, you know, the good Lutherans!

    ROFL, Terry - I may be the more conservative Lutheran, even more than the LCMS. I was confirmed WELS. However because my father's side of the family was LCMS (he sort of 'converted' I guess you could call it when he married my mother. It was a 'mixed marriage' - LCMS and WELS.

    I can fairly claim to have been raised with a foot in both. My two godchildren are from the LCMS side of the family; I had to pass an examination by family LCMS pastors to be sure I was sufficiently doctinally 'pure' to be entrusted with that religious responsibility. Most of the ministers in our family are on the LCMS side.

    My delicate derriere has spent almost as much time worshipping in LCMS pews as in those of WELS churches, dating back to my earliest childhood. I thought you were a relatively recent member of the hardcore conservative really really old-fashioned strict Lutherans that I grew up in.... for those readers who may not be familiar with the finer schisms within Lutheranism.

    Terry, when you are with other Lutherans who are members of the more numerous varieites, and you mention being LDMS....do you get the same very solemn faced "OHhhhhhhhhhhhhh" reaction?

    Thanks for the chuckle!

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  31. When I switched from ELCA to LCMS, Dog Gone, there was a significant amount of paperwork involved. The phrase "sheep rustling" was used, though in a lighthearted fashion.
    I left ELCA for the LCMS in 2004 when I moved to a part of the Big Island that had only an LCMS Lutheran church. If ELCA had allowed gay ministers back in 2004 I would have left for that reason, though.
    LCMS is not as strict here in the mainland in regard to women holding church office. The pastor once told me "We are a long way from St. Louis".

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  32. What may be the 'ultimate' ultra-Lutheran experience - services in a country church in MN or WI, where all the men still sit on one side of the church and women on the other, and the entire service is held in German (or in Swedish or Norwegian). German as the language of Luther may make those services that slightest bit MORE Lutheran, LOL!

    Given how relatively few LCMS and WELS churches there are, compared to ELCA, I'm a little surprised that there would be one in Hawaii - is it an old congregation, by any chance, dating back more or less to the missionary era of the islands?

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