I came across this article on AOL news this morning, over my first cup of coffee for the day:
"8 Candidates Who Want to Amend the Constitution", by writer David Knowles, AOL News Surge Desk.
The provocative first sentence particularly caught my attention, along with photos of Tea Party candidates I recognized, Sharron Angle, Joe Miller, and Rand Paul.
"Does the U.S. Constitution grant Americans citizens too many rights?"
CAN American citizens have too many rights? Is that even possible, to have too many rights? Is THIS what they mean by 'smaller government' - chuck chunks of the Constitution? My next thought was...WHO, exactly, is it that has too many rights, according to these Tea Partiers, and which ones do they want to discard? So often the Devil is in the details, and never has that been more true than of the Tea Party candidates.
I think we can all agree that being American, being PATRIOTIC, means supporting the fundamental ideas on which the United States of America was founded. Those ideas were codified, first in the Declaration of Independence, and later, refined and further expressed in the United States Constitution and the accompanying Bill of Rights. Those ideas have been expanded upon in subsequent Amendments, Amendments which have codified and corrected errors and omissions in the original document, such as giving women the right to vote- as a woman, I'm a huge fan of the 19th Amendment. I'm also a fan of acknowledging that black people are equal to white people, like being counted equally in the Census. I'm also in guaranteeing them the vote, and in guaranteeing their citizenship after slavery and the terrible Civil War that for a time divided this country with the 14th Amendment.
There are three Amendments that the Tea Party supports discarding -- along with parts of others.
First, lets have the cast of characters who are self-proclaimed Tea Partiers, these UNAMERICAN, UNPATRIOTIC candidates that want to curtail our rights, and to gut the Constitution, and harm our nation and its citizens. Alphabetically, they are:
1. Sharron Angle, running for the Senate seat representing Nevada;
2. Paul Broun, running for re-election to the House of Representatives for Georgia;
3. Ken Buck, running for the Senate seat for Colorado;
4. Ken Landry, running for the House of Representatives for Louisiana;
5. Mike Lee, running for the Senate seat for Utah;
6. Joe Miller, running for the Senate seat for Alaska;
7. Rand Paul, running for the Senate seat for Kentucky;
8. Steve Southerland, running for the House of Representatives for Florida;
I am not a scholar of our Constitution, by any means. But as a conscientious citizen, I do have a basic familiarity with the document, dating back to my public school education. If in writing this post, I can encourage even one person to revisit a document they also may think they know well, or.....well enough, then my time in blogging today will be well spent.
So, which Amendments do they think we should give the heave-ho?
Parts of the 14th Amendment, which grant citizenship to people who are born here; the entire 16th Amendment, which gives the federal government the right to tax people directly; and the 17th Amendment, which provides for election by citizens of Senators, instead of Senators being appointed by Legislatures.
Apparently, while making a lot of noise about listening to Americans, and wanting to empower Americans, the Tea Party doesn't actually want Americans to have the power of selecting their Senators. That is a right and a responsibility which they feel is best left to the legislatures to exercise for you, rather than give that power to you. Apparently, the Tea Party doesn't think our citizens can or should be trusted with that weighty responsibility. They want someone else to do that for you.
And as for the 14th Amendment, following the logic of the Tea Party, had that Amendment not been enacted, those slaves who were either descended from people forcibly abducted and sold, or those who had themselves been abducted and sold would never have become citizens. All of these Tea Party candidates for office, it is worth noting are white (as am I, btw). Many on the political right have protested 'playing the race card' and claims the Tea Party is 'racist'. This would be an excellent example of precisely that sort of racial insensitivity, if not outright racism, not only for this provision, but also Rand Paul's preference for seeing the accommodation clause of civil rights legislation overturned, that prohibits business from discrimination.
I would dearly love to see someone do a genealogy work-up on each and every one of these Tea Partiers, checking to see how many of THEIR ancestors actually would be legal under this premise. Because if some of their ancestors are not legally naturalized citizens when they immigrated here, then following their logic, they would not be legal either, and should not be in this country, much less running for office. A LOT of Americans would not be citizens if we were consistent with what the Tea Party candidates profess. Glass houses, stones.
But of course, the Tea Partiers respond that they don't want to remove the citizenship of any existing American citizens (which might include them AND potential voters for them). They only want to prevent those EEEEEEeevil Latinos from crossing our borders to have 'anchor babies', or Muslims who want to have 'terrorist babies' from having their children be citizens. You know - people who are not like them in race or ethnicity, or religion, or politics. Because they don't want these people to have rights if they are born here, they believe these people have too many rights.
I would refer our readers to their history books. Those people in the past who have NOT had citizenship, in some cases have had citizenship specifically denied them by legislation, include blacks; women; Asians - from both China and Japan, but especially from China; Native Americans; and Hispanics. Some legislation, like the 1937 legislation that effectively made marijuana illegal, was promoted by referring to these people as 'degenerate races'. (Don't get me started on the false assumptions made about women, especially myths relating to menstruation, like many qualified women being denied pilots licenses back in the early days of aviation.)
The claims about anchor babies and terrorist babies are garbage. They do not hold up under fact checking. These claims are just one more example of the Tea Party acting to cause "MORAL PANIC". The link is provided for those readers who may not be familiar with the sociology term.
And the 16th Amendment, repealing that? Another example of Tea Party promoted stupidity. There is no other country in the world, but especially in first world countries, that does not engage in direct national taxation. There is a good reason for this, practicality and efficiency of government. This is not the most offensive of the ideas the Tea Party endorses, but it might be the most stupid and irrational. It is ideas like this, that throw out the baby with the bath water, that argues for opposing the Tea Party and the extremists on the political right, who would disavow the philosophy of the founders of this nation, disenfranchise their fellow Americans, promote discrimination that would deprive people of their rights and freedom, and cripple the national government of this country. Their ideas would be laughable, out loud laughable, if they weren't so damn scary because of a few misguided, well-intentioned people taking them seriously. These are bad ideas; being well-intentioned doesn't make these ideas good.
For those readers who are interested in a further comparison between the right attempts to amend the Constitution, compared to the far fewer proposals to amend the Constitution by the left and center which are proposing pragmatic, practical changes, not wildly ideological ones, see my earlier post In Defense of the Constitution of the United States.
The idea of repealing the 16th and 17th amendments are well... bat S*** crazy. (reminds me of Orly Taitz).
ReplyDeleteThe idea of modifying the 14th amendment, relating to citizenship makes more sense, in a way, although I think it unnecessary. Its unnecessary because if a mother is not in the United States legally, and gives birth, and is then detained, she is still subject to deportation. There is no reason not to deport her. We can't deport her child or children. However, we can deport her, and its her choice whether to bring her children along.
We could also, if we so chose, restrict the privileges of American citizens to bring in their family members from other countries if they had ever been here illegally in the past.
I am NOT, and I repeat NOT suggesting that we do any of these things at present. I am merely pointing out that its possible to address the alleged problem of "anchor babies", and like DG, I believe the problem is greatly exaggerated, without amending our Constitution.
Orly Taitz is the Tea Party poster child for bat-dung crazy.
ReplyDeleteBut these serious candidates - EIGHT serious candidates - are pushing these ideas in their campaigns because it gets genuine support from........the Tea Partiers. The very same Tea Partiers who wrap themselves - and their guns - up in the flag and call it yankee doodle while trying to trash the Constitution.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on repealing the 16th Amendment ToE...
I've never seen anything to indicate that even the Tea Party, as bizarre as some of them are, counts Orly Taitz as one of its own... that being said, almost nothing weird or strange about Orly Taitz would surprise me.
ReplyDeleteThe 16th amendment was put in place to specifically over-rule Pollack v. Farmer's Loan & Trust Co, 157 US 429 (1895). In that case, the Supreme Court of the US ruled that taxes on income, dividends, interest and rents was unconstitutional as provided in the Revenue Act of 1894 because it was a direct tax, and the Constitution, in Article I, Section 8 ruled that such taxes had to be apportioned to the states.
Income tax, both individual and corporate, are over 50% of US Government revenue. Repealing the 16th amendment would gut the US govermnent, and force not only the discontinuation of a lot of things that the Tea Partiers hate.. (such as education, social security, medicare, etc), but would curtail our defense and virtually all other government services.
It would be exceedingly stupid.
Yes, ToE,Orly Taitz self-identifies as a tea party supporter, and she is a supporter of Sharron Angle, specifically trying to raise funds for Angle from her birther followers, asking them to donate to Angle instead of donating to fund her $20,000 fine.
ReplyDeleteTaita has appeared as a speaker at Tea Party conventions - like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHItY5Anj3s
That said, it would be fair to say all,or nearly all birthers are tea partiers, but not that all tea partiers are birthers - although many of them are.
Enough of them are also supporters for the repeal or modification of these Constitutional amendments - just as crazy as birther beliefs- to be a concern.
These are profoundly ignorant people, overall, who have nutty ideas, and who sincerely think they are patriots, who need to save the rest of us from our own secular socialis folly -with their guns, if need be (in some cases they seem to be looking forward to it).
These aren't just stupid people, in some respects they are scary-stupid people. Orly isn't the only one of the bunch who is bat shit crazy.
The difference ToE between you and I is that we are better students of history, and we are better students of our civics classes.
An example would be your citation of the legal case involved,or in my case, any one of the day in history posts. Unlike most tea partiers we are better acquainted with our own political system - and other systems, including similar / related ones like the UK - not inexperienced newcomers to this political process (as many tea partiers are).
More than that, unlike these tea partiers who accept crap - like tea party assertions about state sovereignty and secession, or they-are-coming-for-your-guns and illuminati-one-world-government-threats about UN forces hiding in Alabama ready to take over -we actually fact check claims.
"Orly Taitz self-identifies as a tea party supporter" Lots of people say they are a part of something. The guy out in front of the polling place in Philly said he was a member of the New Black Panthers even though a couple of the leaders of the group said he was not. The other point is that the Constitution was not written to grant the people rights. The Constitution was written to limit the rights of government over the governed. The founders figured all people had those rights just most governments took them away so they would prevent that from happening. That is why I figure any decent judge when there is a grey area concerning the constitution should rule in the way that limits the government.
ReplyDeleteI read another of your articles last night that mentioned taxes also and the way Germany did them. I did some checking and in 2001 and 2008 Germany greatly simplified their tax system. I converted Euros to dollars and what it works out to is under 14k you pay no tax. 14k to 72k you pay 15%. 72k to 300k you pay 42% and over 300k you pay 45%. I read two articles about it and neither mentioned any deductions but one of the two said net income and the other just said income so that number might be the same as our adjusted gross income. Now the thing is that rate is per person. If you have two people living together you can double those numbers because it seems you are allowed to split the household income between all adults. So if you make 75k but your spouse or partner makes 10k you can put it down is 42k each and fall into the 15% bracket. It certainly seemed much simpler than our system. Of course this was only the national tax there were also local and state taxes but we have those here also in the form of property tax, sales tax and state income tax in some places.
Good comment, Tuck.
ReplyDeleteYou wrote:"Lots of people say they are a part of something. The guy out in front of the polling place in Philly said he was a member of the New Black Panthers even though a couple of the leaders of the group said he was not."
Most groups that are groups have some kind of membership. When it comes to political parties, though, it gets a bit different. At least the Republicans and Democrats have formal statements about what their positions, and people can agree or disagree in claiming they belong, support or identify with those parties.
The Tea Party is more amorphous, and less organized. However, to the extent that Orly Taitz appears to share many of the positions which are common to the tea party, of which 'birther' is just one that is common if not unanimous, and has been an invited speaker on those positions at conventions and rallies, I think under the 'walks like a duck, swims like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, call it a duck' reasoning, we can reasonably call her a tea partier.
Tuck also wrote: "The other point is that the Constitution was not written to grant the people rights. The Constitution was written to limit the rights of government over the governed. The founders figured all people had those rights just most governments took them away so they would prevent that from happening."
I would disagree again Tuck. During the Enlightenment era which was seminal to the thinking of the founders of this country, the notiion of natural law and natural rights was just one of the contributing factors to their conclusions and thinking. It is, imho, overstated sometimes while other contributing thinking is given too little due. The Constitution reflect trying to define what the rights are that people should have under the premise of government that was by the consent of the governed. The constitution very clearly wanted to acknowledge and define those rights, not merely limit government relating to rights. I'm not clear how you think any document could do that without first identifying what rights we are talking about people having. Automatically ruling against the governmnt any time there is a 'gray area' is simplistic, and not, imho, good jurisprudence.
Tuck wrote: "I read another of your articles last night that mentioned taxes also and the way Germany did them."
I believe my point was that Germany taxes highly, as do the Scandinavian countries, and they are by conservative standards more socialized than the U.S., and are more successful by a variety of measures than what would be the outcome of conservative proposals.
My point was that so-called socialism, which I would describe as a stabilizing safety-net and proactive regulation, does not create a bad-for-business environment, just the opposite.
I did not address how Germany taxes. But I would like you to post the articles you read, so they could be added to this discussion.
Tuck wrote: "So if you make 75k but your spouse or partner makes 10k you can put it down is 42k each and fall into the 15% bracket."
Would you care to elaborate on how this differs from married couple filing a joint return in the U.S. Tuck? (or....ToE?)
According to pure Constitutional theory, government has no rights except those which are granted to it by the constitution. This is the whole basis of the "sovereignty" argument, that the 10th amendment has been largely ignored. It also, however, requires a literal reading of the constitution, which NO and I repeat NO Supreme Court has ever endorsed, nor will it. Supreme Court justices are practical people. They, whether they have previously been teachers of law or sitting judges, or both, realize that you can't use a literal interpretation of a 200 year old document and expect to accomplish anything like the intents of the founding fathers.
ReplyDeleteOn the differences in taxation:
In the US, a couple who is married, filing jointly, if one earns $75k and the other earns $10K, their adjusted gross income (absent any other deductions) will be $85k, and it would be taxed at 25%. Under the German system, according to tucker, you would take that $85k and divide it in 1/2, which results in $42.k each, or a taxable rate of 15%. Now, what Tuck isn't saying, (and I don't know but am speculating), is that when you divide that income by 2, you then tax each person separately also.. to that would mean each person is taxed at 15%.
$85k at 25% is $21,2150. Done separately, its: $75K times 15% ($11,250) + $10K times 15% ($1,500) or $12,750. If that's the case, then I really like the German system.
Thanks for your expertise on both counts, ToE!
ReplyDeleteWhile I have stated above that repealing the 16th and 17th amendments are just plain nutty ideas, and I think the suggestion to modify the 14th amendment is unnecessary, (i.e. the problem, if it is as significant as alleged (which I doubt)), can be resolved in other ways which don't involved tinkering with the constitution; that said, suggesting that a person is "UNAmerican" simply because they don't approve of a part of our constitution is equally wrong. That quite frankly, reeks of the Bush administration's "if you don't agree with us, you're un-American".
ReplyDeleteThe tea party candidates have a constitutional right to disagree with parts of the constitution, including parts which you may hold dear. That does NOT, however, mean that they are any less American than you are. The first amendment grants them the right to politically disagree with you and your opinions, and because you did not agree with them, doesn't mean they should be vilified in that way.
ToE, it is distasteful to me to view my fellow Americans with such feeling. But at some point, I have just plain become sick of them claiming to be more patriotic than other people, promoting these stupid, ill-informed, extreme ideas which would be harmful to our country and to our individual citizens.
ReplyDeleteIt is NOT about simple civil disagreement. This bunch of fools not only talk about shooting the rest of us with their claims to 2nd amendment rights and the NEED for revolution overthrowing our duly elected government, they are taking steps to prepare to do so, burying caches of weapons, ammo, and survival gear to declare war on this country, its military, and our government.
At some point, it is appropriate to tell these extremists they are inconsistent with the Constitution - the Constitution as it was conceived originally, and the Constitution as it has been amended, as determined lawful by the SCOTUS.
I have never in my criticism of the Bush administration referred to them as UNAmerican - despite the provocation of torturing people, ignoring habeus corpus, and a laundry list of other glaring actions. I objected to those things, but did not call anyone UnAmerican.
But these people are perfectly willing to ignore We the PEOPLE - those who elected Obama president, those who elected the members of Congress who voted in health care reform, those who voted to end don't ask don't tell. These people are perfectly willing to impose their daft notion on the rest of us, ignoring all of the majority decisions upheld by the SCOTUS historically, and currently.
I have no intention of denying them their consitutional right to say anything lawful they wish. I'm not suggesting for a heartbeat that anyone be denied their 1st Amendment rights. But I do not believe for a second that what they say is beyond criticism -- including for being dangerous and destructive to this country, and antithetical to everything good that is our heritage.
These Tea Partiers and other conservaties have thrown around that term "Unamerican", (and not just the kook Bachmann from my home state of MN.). I think it perhaps past time that others let these people know what some of the rest of us think of their ideas and their plans.
They DO NOT speak for most of us, but sadly they seem to think they do. Anyone not decided needs to think hard and choose -- and NOT choose these hateful people.
It is perfectly constitutional to advocate change of our system. It is a violation of federal law, however, to attempt actual armed rebellion. I have heard some of the tea party personages make veiled references to this, but nothing overt, and never have I seen anything that would qualify as criminal.
ReplyDeleteYou have an absolute right to disagree with them. However, they also have an absolute right to spouse their nutty ideas, no matter how much we dislike them. That's my point. It does not make them un-american for supporting a very loose, (ok.. virtually no gun control). It does not make them un-american for wanting to change the 14th amendment, NOR does it make them un-american for thinking they are more patriotic than you are. It means they're idiots, but not un-american.
I find un-american those who do things such as trample constitutional freedoms because they can, in the name of so-called national security interests. I call un-american those who declare "if you don't agree with us, you must be anti-american". Those people, (btw, Bush administration officials), are much more anti-american and/or un-american, in my opinion, than the tea partiers. I know you know me well enough to know that I'm NOT a tea partier by any means.. but I also don't think they're un-american.
Actually the latest Rasmussan poll shows that since March of this yr 50% or more of likely voters want health care repealed. This week the number is 55% but it has not been under 50% since the bill passed. Here is the link.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law If you just put health care reform in the search at the top of the page you will find that at no point did 50% of the people support the current health care bill. I really don't think everyone voting for Obama was voting for health care, in fact a large percentage were voting for him because he was not Bush and was younger than McCain and gives really good speeches. Most people did want health care reform, just not the current bill.
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ReplyDeleteTuck, I assume you realize that Rasmussen is widely considered to be a right "leaning" poll, and has been criticized for the way they word their questions which directly affect the answer / poll outcome? Are you aware of the problems associated with the Rasmussen kind of automated response rather than polls where a live person records the response.
ReplyDeleteOr how Rasmussen 'cooks' their outcomes - it's just wikipedia, but this is an example of what I mean (quoting from wikipedia):
"In one example, the first question asks for a job rating for Tim Pawlenty, a Republican governor, using an approve/disapprove scale. The next question asks for the way that Al Franken, a Democratic senator, is performing his role, but uses a Excellent/Good/Fair/Poor scale. Nick Panagakis of Pollster.com has pointed out that, when using the latter scale, "approval is often reported by combining the top two and bottom two scores", including the "fair" score as a "disapproval" vote.[27]"
Do you really think that kind of polling should be given respect? I don't.
Voter approval has gone up pretty consistently for the health care reform legislation since it passed. Even before it passed, when the actual bill content - not the misinformation and disniformation spread about it (especially that paid for by big insurance companies)- was presented to people being polled for their opinion, approval was much higher for the various provisions that make up the whole, compared to the impression given when people were asked about just 'health care reform'. Approval continues to rise as some of the provisions are coming into effect.
For the most part people who still oppose it either really don't know it and/or understand the health care reform, or they really don't know much about what was being reformed and why - the same crowd that insists we have the best system in the world as we decline rapidly in comparison to other developed countries for every measure of healthcare quality, in other words, the conservatives living in a fantasy world not reality.