Tuesday, August 7, 2012

Conservative Dementia: Deny Voting Rights to Legal Voters,
But NOT Guns to Mass Murdering Shooters?

Today Jared Loughner was found sufficiently competent, although neither cured nor sane, to make a plea bargain deal in court for his life, agreeing to life in prison for the shooting of 19 people in Tucson, Arizona, including the attempted assassination of a serving U.S. Congresswoman, the injuring of 13, and killing 6.  Loughner had legally purchased the weapon, and ammunition, despite apparent dangerous mental illness issues well before he purchased a firearm.  Jared Loughner used a hand gun equipped with a large capacity magazine holding 31 rounds, consistent with the use of such magazines in many mass shootings.

Since that shooting in January 2011, in the United States there have been 60 OTHER mass shootings.  That's 60 mass shootings in the intervening 83 weeks since the shooting that killed 6, including a child and a widely respected judge.  Not quite a mass shooting every week, but given how many shootings occurred just last month, and the start we have on mass shootings in the first week of this month, taken with the prevention of the multiple planned Aurora Colorado copycat mass shootings where the people arrested possessed arsenals of weapons and ammunition, including assault-style weapons, large capacity magazines, a 50 caliber machine gun, we might manage a mass shooting a week soon.
The weapons used in mass shootings are overwhelmingly legally purchased, an estimated 75% of the weapons are legally acquired.  In an overwhelming number of the mass shootings, assault style weapons are most often used, and large capacity magazines are a significant preference.  These shootings include shootings committed by criminals, the dangerously mentally ill, domestic violence perpetrators, stalkers and harassers, and drug users, who are still able to legally obtain these weapons and related equipment.
There were six mass shootings just in the month of July this year, and another one in the first week of August, by a right wing extremist attacking a minority religious group.

July 20, 2012: 12 killed, 58 injured in Aurora Colorado;
                        legally purchased weapons and body armor including an
                        assault style weapon and large capacity magazine;

July 17, 2012: 17 injured in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, attempted murder of an 18th
                         legally purchased military assault style weapon used;
July 11, 2012: 4 children were shot while they played in a Chicago, Illinois park
                         the weapon or weapons have not been identified;
July  9, 2012: 3 dead, including 1 child, 2 wounded in a Wilmington, Delaware park
                        weapons were not specified;
July  6, 2012:  3 people were wounded in a Chicago, Illinois shooting
                        weapon or weapons not specified;
July  2, 2012:  1 killed, 5 wounded at a party in Seattle, Washington
                        20 to 30 shell casings were found at the scene, weapon(s) were not specified;
July  1, 2012:  1 dead, 2 wounded in a Chicago, Illinois shooting in a public park
                        weapon(s) not specified;
Planned mass shootings imitating the Aurora Colorado shootings, (as distinct from any other planned mass shootings) which were thwarted (NOT an exhaustive list):
July 27, 2012: Neil Edwin Prescott, Maryland, made phone threats intending a mass shooting
                        to a former employer, describing himself as the 'real Joker'; he had an arsenal of
                         2 dozen weapons, including assault style weapons, thousands of rounds
                        of ammunition and large capacity magazines; all appear to be legally purchased;
July 24, 2012: Timothy Courtois attended a Bat Man movie showing while armed, identifying himself
                        as 'the Joker', he intended to shoot a former boss, unknown others;
                         personal arsenal included an AK-47, a machine gun, assorted hand guns
                        and other long barrel weapons, and thousands of rounds of ammunition;
                        weapons appear to be a mix of legally and illegally acquired;

And just today, we have another possible copy cat incident, from MSNBC.com:
Man armed with gun, knives entered Ohio theater showing Batman movie, police say
Police are trying to figure out why a man took a bag of weapons with him to an Ohio movie theater showing the latest Batman movie.
Authorities confirmed that 37-year-old Scott A. Smith walked into the Regal Cinemas movie theater in Westlake, Ohio, on Saturday night with several weapons, according to Cleveland's NBC-affiliate WKYC. An off-duty police officer and the theater manager became suspicious after noticing that Smith was carrying a beige satchel, WKYC reported.
Smith had bought a ticket for the 10 p.m. showing of "The Dark Knight Rises" at a Regal Cinemas about 16 miles west of Cleveland. He was the first and only person inside the movie theater and he sat in the center seat of the back row -- a position with "tactical advantage," police said, according to WKYC.
He was arrested by off-duty Westlake police officer Jeremiah Bullins, after it was discovered that Smith's bag contained a fully-loaded 9 mm pistol, two full magazines and three knives, according to WKYC. Bullins also found a fourth knife under Smith's clothing.
Smith drove a Toyota truck to the theater, which police impounded, finding a tactical vest inside, WKYC reported.
Except for traffic violations, Smith does not have a criminal record and police said he never made any threats. In Smith's home in the nearby town of North Ridgeville, Westlake police found about eight rifles and handguns, as well as gas masks and bulletproof vests, according to The Plain Dealer.
Smith is married with a young daughter. His wife told police she knew about this gun room but was not aware of his motives, WKYC reported.
Smith faces a minimum of four counts of carrying concealed weapons and more charges could come. He is expected to be arraigned Wednesday.


I find it odd that this guy went armed to a theater, alone; that he has accumulated an arsenal of weapons - a whole gun room? - and I'm waiting for the list available to the public to be expanded to include an assault-style weapon(s) and large capacity  magazine(s), and maybe some form of gas canisters.  No doubt he acquired all of these weapons and accessories legally, and it's better than even odds that this guy will also turn out to be a little crazy, if not a lot crazy, a proponent of the NRA ideas if not an actual member, and strongly conservative, including probably an Obama hater.

Because of course, you NEED that stuff for self defense, in case, despite the long term decline in crime, you have to shoot a lot of people.  Of course if the bad guys fail to accommodate your desire to shoot someone breaking in, you have to go looking for someone to shoot.  That appears to be the premise of the NRA sponsored and written Shoot First laws that ALEC and the NRA paid conservative legislators to pass for them.
Fanatics who distort the 2nd Amendment fear that if we restrict dangerous people from acquiring and carrying firearms, either open or concealed, that there will be a terrible, horrible, frightening assault on freedom and civil rights, as distinct from the terrible, horrible, frightening assaults on the lives and bodies of actual Americans and others in this country. 

These 2nd Amendment fanatics equate more guns with more freedom, regardless of the actual decrease in safety, and therefore freedom to pursue life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.  A right to SAFETY, not lethal force or vigilanteism, is part of the more recent progress in our understanding of civil rights, as reflected in the 3rd right of the Universal Declaration of Rights. 

The same 2nd Amendment fanatics also tend to have an inaccurate knowledge and distorted understanding of the origins of any right to self defense and castle doctrines in western European law and philosophy.

In support of the maximum possible sales of firearms and ammunition, these 2nd Amendment, mostly extreme right wing fanatics also seek to restore the rights to firearms to convicted felons, even those who committed multiple crimes of violence with firearms, and who have known problems with violence.  These criminals have a poor track record with responsible firearms ownership, and frequently commit additional crimes of violence in the community.
There is in fact, NOT a demonstrable problem with voter fraud, but conservatives want to deny millions of LEGAL voters their right to peacefully engage in the most fundamental exercise of civil rights guaranteed to us by the U.S. Constitution, and by our respective state constitutions.  There is no factual basis to their fears, they can find no instance of voter fraud, or altered election outcomes from voter fraud. 

Conservatives oppose felons voting, or having their voting rights restored, despite those people having concluded their sentences - a position held despite every indication that when former felons - felons who have completed their sentences - DO vote, they are far more likely to become productive citizens who do not re-offend. This is a fantasy fear of voter fraud on the part of conservatives.  What they REALLY fear are losing elections where legal voters don't like their candidates.
It is quite common for the conservatives to point to the Coleman / Franken race; but the only instance of voter fraud in that election was a Republican who committed voter fraud for Coleman and McCain.  There IS no investigation whether conducted by conservatives, liberals, neutral academics, or bi-partisan organizations like the MN County Attorney's association which has EVER found a problem with fraudulent voting in elections. Zero, zip, NONE.  But it is a terrible fear, and the further to the right the individual, the greater that unfounded fear.  They don't need facts, they are not persuaded by facts; they hold tightly to that fear with both hands intransigently, no matter how overwhelming the evidence is to the contrary. 
They WANT to believe their fantasies, so facts are irrelevant - they're conservatives! Ideology replaces critical and analytical thinking, and induces them to not only ignore facts, but to actively oppose them.  This is the basis for my regular assertions that the more to the right a conservative is, the more they tend to have broken with objective reality.
In contrast, these same conservatives push for former felons, who are likely to be dangerous, to have their firearms rights restored.  There is an entire legal specialty that has grown up around it, in spite of the clear pattern of harm and danger and violence that results from it.  These are often NOT good candidates for firearms rights to be restored.  NOT giving felons legal access to guns reduces subsequent crimes by 20 to 30 percent.
Individuals convicted of crimes, even nonviolent misdemeanors, are on average many times more likely than law-abiding citizens to subsequently commit acts of violence.
We have more than seven times the gun violence of other countries. We have mass shootings almost every week, most of them with assault rifles, expanded magazines, and with legally purchased weapons. Many of the people who engage in gun crimes should have been denied firearms - and would have been under 'may issue' laws instead of 'shall issue'.  Gun advocates like to claim that we don't have blood in the streets as a result of their changes, but the reality is that we have far higher incidence of gun violence - blood EVERYWHERE - than any other civilized, developed countries with stricter gun regulation, which is pretty much ALL OF THEM.
So long as we have conservatives, especially the Republican, Libertarian, and Tea Partiers who are veering further and further to the right, and increasingly abandoning any connection to thinking based on facts, in favor of beliefs and fantasies and just plain delusions, in wanting to push for more lax gun laws but more restrictive voting laws, we will continue to have more violence, but far less freedom.
We will have, courtesy of the right, an intentional abandonment of the fundamental premise of self-government, representative government, and one man/one vote, in favor for armed criminals with assault weapons.  God forbid we give civil rights to people who are same sex oriented, or allow minorities, the military, the elderly and students to vote without onerous obstacles, even though we have more than adequate safeguards in place.  But suggest that we return to 'may issue' where there was not a problem with 2nd Amendment reduction, and there WAS a huge reduction in gun violence, or suggest that we restrict criminals, dangerously crazy people, domestic violence perpetrators, stalkers, or drug users from obtaining firearms legally and easily, including assault style weapons and expanded capacity magazines --- things which make ALL OF US LESS SAFE AND LESS FREE  -- and you will have the 2nd Amendment conservatives dementedly foaming at the mouth.
They can't demonstrate that anyone is improperly denied firearms under 'may issue'. The statistics are clear - shoot first laws result in an increase in homicides, but no reduction of crime.  Lax gun law states have far more gun violence, both non-fatal and fatal shootings, as well as more suicides with firearms and far more accidental shootings, especially of children.  There is ample documentation that conservative gun law changes have produced serious injury and fatalities, but they don't care. 
We need to hold conservatives to facts, we need to vehemently and legally oppose conservative delusions of ideology, and to force them through reason to return to objective reality.  Because they are increasingly becoming more extreme - and more dangerous to all of us, including themselves.
Their fears are misplaces, their terrors of others are wrong, and they have lost the ability to reason. 

Facts are their enemies more than any criminals who might harm them. 
Facts should be their friends, if we can stop their dementia.  But until the right returns to sanity and factual, objective reality, we have to stop their efforts to endanger us all.  We have to step up and confront them on their lies and factual inaccuracies about the Constitution, their failed gun culture, and their failed ideologies.

Our ACTUAL freedom, and our very lives are at risk from conservatives, their politics and legislation.
We need to deal with the real world, and we can begin by learning the lessons of facts, and making responsible changes, including emulating what has worked in the rest of the world.
The answer is fewer guns, less violence, less groundless fear, less right wing extremism, and more voters participating in representative government.  THAT would make us all more free, and be consistent with the U.S. Constitution.  We should renew the assault rifle ban, and ban expanded capacity magazines, and give felons the ballot, but not guns and bullets.
Ballots are not the danger; bullets are.

17 comments:

  1. This looks interesting.

    http://www.amazon.com/Whos-Counting-Fraudsters-Bureaucrats-Your/dp/1594036187

    Quote from the book description: "In 2008, the Minnesota senate race that provided the 60th vote needed to pass Obamacare was decided by a little over 300 votes. Almost 200 felons have already been convicted of voting illegally in that election and dozens of other prosecutions are still pending."

    Haven't read it. Just intrigued by the claim that voter fraud is widespread in Minnesota - nearly wide enough to account for the margin of victory. If true, that might be relevant to the discussion.

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  2. The book is inaccurate. There were NOT 200 felons covnicted of voting illegally, and there are not dozens of other prosecutions still pending.

    There WERE however numerous claims made by organizations like Minnesota Majority that proved incorrect.

    Unfortunately there are a lot of right wing factually inaccurate crap clais like this.

    I refer you instead to the BIPARTISAN exhaustive report by the MN County Attorneys Office of 2010.

    Since these were the attorneys who actually supervised the investigations of all claims of voter fraud and prosecuted the few, they would know.

    Also, you seem to be one of those who are badly informed of what the safeguards and checks are in our voter system, including the exceptional transparency of the record keeping by our Sec. State's office.

    You can go look for yourself at the ballots cast where there was any proven voter fraud.

    UNLIKE you, obviouisly, I've actually read the report, every page, every word. And it would seem from your coments that you also haven't gone through election judge training either, OR familiarized yourself with what the checks are on the voter roster.

    Your premise is flawed, and once again, you are factually inaccurate. There is NO study, no ivestigation, no record anywhwere that holds up to scrutiny of voter fraud being a problem in MN. And there sure as hell were not 200 felons convicted fo voting illegally in the 2008 election.

    If you want to claim that, you had better be able to prove it. I want a list of the names of them, where they were prosecuted, and the judge who presided over their convictions.

    If you can't produce that - and you can't - you have nothing...as conservatives so often find themselves with these claims.

    Btw - in some of the cases where felons voted and were convicted, there were some problems with their corrections department files contributing to confusion as to their voting status at the time they voted, so of those few convictions, even many of those weren't intentional fraud but rather ignorance or misinformation.

    And THAT isn't a good basis for passing bad voter restriction laws.

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  3. On the other hand, from the MN Cty Attorneys Association I can give you this breakdown:

    The report reached several conclusions and provided lawmakers with some recommendations based on the data gathered on voter fraud.

    “Not one single government-issued identification confirms all the requirements to vote,” the report’s authors wrote. “In fact, in reviewing all types of government-issued identification (i.e. passports, military IDs, driver’s licenses, state-issued IDs), the only type of election fraud a photo identification requirement would prevent is voter impersonation.”

    That type of fraud did not happen in Minnesota in 2008. The report found that county attorneys investigated seven cases of potential voter impersonation, and no one was convicted of the crime.

    The bulk of the report focuses on felons voting, an area that was also the thrust of the complaints by Minnesota Majority. From 2008, 26 people were convicted of voting before their civil rights had been restored. They were in the following counties: Ramsey (12 cases); Hennepin (3 cases); Beltrami (2); Blue Earth (2); Todd (1); Lake (1); Morrison (1); Martin (1); Mille Lacs (1); Red Lake (1): Polk (1).


    http://minnesotaindependent.com/74516/county-attorneys-say-minnesota-majority-reports-on-voter-fraud-frivolous

    Even with the badly flawed Republican math that some conservatives use, that doesn't add up to 200 voter fraud convictions and there ARE no more pending cases as of this 2010 report.

    The report used to be available online, which was how and where I read it. I suspect if you contacted the MN Cty Attorney's Association, or possibly the Sec State's office, you could get yourself a copy.

    You know - if you ever want to acquaint yourself with facts. You know - the real facts, which are verifiable, not made up conservative crap.

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  4. So, Joe - are you EVER going to do your OWN homework, and produce verifiable facts?

    Or do I have to keep doing it for you?

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  5. dog gone:

    Joe Doakes and his fellow gunzloonz are gish gallopers of the first order. They puke up a litany of lies--lies which have been debunked many, many times--and when they are debunked, yet again, they simply ignore the factual data that conflicts with their gunligious beliefs.

    You need to remember that if something is not in the Gunspell of St. Lott, St. Cleck or one of the other gunposholes of the NRA then it can't be true.

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  6. I'm still waiting for the examples of abuse of authority in may issue. Because of the way that safeguards are built in to may issue, those don't happen - but the pro-gunners, who don't rely on factual information and who don't fact check for themselves have been fooled into thinking that is a problem. when it isn't.

    The reality is, we have a lot of people who clearly, and reasonably should be prohibited from legal firearm purchase, but who cannot be under shall issue. That includes the mass shooters like Loughner, Holmes, Stawicki, Barnes and a whole long list of others. The copycat shooters in Maine and Maryland, and the one just this week all look to be more of the same.

    Having 60 mass shootings just through July should be a clear indicator that shall issue is a total failure.

    But every single damned time we have one of those mass shootings, guns and ammo sales go up.

    Surprise surprise, the NRA, Gun Manufacturers, and retailers like WalMart, all members of ALEC and similar shadow groups that give a lot of money to conservative politicians, are making a lot of money from these mass shootings. So long as they continue to make money, and continue to push shall issue when it clearly results in dangerous firearms incidents...... their protestations they don't want mentally ill people armed to the teeth is bullshit.

    That goes double for conservative politicians who profit from these bloody events, and shame on the ignorant conservative voters who are led by the lies without questioning the facts for themselves.

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  7. Joe,

    That claim is PATENTLY untrue, was repudiated by review aftr review, and frankly is the made-up fairy tail of the far right. It smacks of propoganda of the worst sort, the sort that justifies stripping people of rights without actually EVER having proved the case, and even worse, of calling into question the legal foundation of laws passed by our Congress. It's crap, and your partner, Mr. Berg, floated that crap when it happened. He was repudiated, as were each of the bogus, horse crap claims (of which there were many) about fraud. The ballots which weren't "found" were fully and satisfactorily explained to a panel of first three and then five judges, nearly all of whom were Republicans FYI, the bogus claims of ballot stuffing were refuted, the bogus claims that an old folks home was emptied and people had ballots filled in were refuted. You hear about these stories because the far right DESPARATELY wants them to be true even though they can't prove any of them. The burden of proof here is on the far right, they've failed, time and again. Without such proof, it's unconscionable that we'd strip rights from people - do you agree?

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  9. Dog Gone said: "There is NO study, no ivestigation, no record anywhwere that holds up to scrutiny of voter fraud being a problem in MN . . . If you want to claim that, you had better be able to prove it. I want a list of the names of them, where they were prosecuted, and the judge who presided over their convictions."


    http://www.electionintegritywatch.com/documents/2011-Report-Voter-Fraud-Convictions.pdf

    Verify them through MNCIS, free on-line, search by defendant's name.

    The first person on the list, Kristy Dettle, was convicted in Anoka County of voting twice and sentenced to 1 year and $1,000 by Judge Venne.

    The first person in the Ramsey County section of the list, Timothy Arsenal, was convicted of voting as an ineligible person and spent 93 days in the workhouse, per Judge Marinnan.

    I did not vouch for the book's accuracy, I only said that if true, it might be relevant. That list was convictions completed as of a year ago and at that time, the number of convicted illegal voters was already a third of Al Franken's margin of victory.

    If the list of convictions continued to grow during the past year, it would not be ridiculous to ask whether illegal voters influenced the outcome of the election for United States Senator and,since Al Franken was the 60th senator needed to defeat a filibuster, the felon vote might be directly responsible for Obamacare.

    On these facts, I don't think the vitriol of your personal attacks is warranted.
    .

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  10. Election integrity watch and Minnesota Majority were discredited by the county attorneys.

    I'll take their list any day over theirs; they do the prosecution for the respective elections.

    Because of the statute of limitations, there are no more pending convictions; when the county attorney's list came out, they were done with prosecutions.

    I suspect that if you check you will find that there might be voter registration problems - which are often not fraud. As to the felons, they were often found to have been incorrectly advised by corrections and while a technical voter fraud - as in they couldn't and shouldn't vote because some aspect of their sentence had not been completed.

    In Minnesota nearly all felons have their voter rights restored when they leave jail. The few who were the problems for technical reasons were different. Some corrections officers didn't check their files carefully, and gave them conflicting information. If they voted, they still got in trouble -and to some degree fairly so, because it was THEIR responsibility to know that stuff. But they were misinformed as well by persons in authority. I don't think that is what most of us - including presumably you - as an attempt, much less an organized attempt, to commit fraud or election theft. In fact, I think it was kind of a dirty shame some of those people were prosecuted at all.

    That kind of event is being used to claim voter fraud and election THEFT. I see it often on Mitch's blog - and its wrong, it is a bad claim, a false claim.

    It is being used to disenfranchise tens of thousands of LEGAL voters. In other states where such bogus claims are made it is hundreds for thousands of voters.

    For many of the people who will be disenfranchised, the lack the funds to replace items like birth certificatss at $25 a pop, or access to one is an additional expense.

    The GOP will force the state of MN an estimated very unnecessary $20 million dollars - and estimate that is probably LOW. And that is money that could, for example, go to better uses like repairing the many bridges in this state that are in as severe disrepair as the I-35 bridge had been. It is far more cost effective to repair them, than to replace them --- as has been noted many times. Yet THAT was not given the time or attention by the right in the legislature, voter fraud and denying marriage equality and abortion fanaticism was.

    And the false claims of voter fraud are being made to deliberately disenfranchise groups like minorities; it is racist in the EFFECT. To claim that is not the itent is meaningless, so long as that is the KNOWN effect.

    That people on the right will do that to other Minnesotans, deliberately, intentionally,calculatingly to try to find a way to try to steal elections under cover of a legal maneuver deeply angers me. It is as close to political evil in this state as I have seen in my lifetime.

    It is a bald faced attempt to steal elections and to steal voting rights.

    That should make YOU angry too.

    Felon votes my ass.

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  11. That list of convictions is not just some discredited interest group, it's a list of actual court cases where people have paid fines and sat in jail. I gave you two random examples to verify the accuracy of the list.

    If you have credible information the information in the Minnesota court records system is inaccurate, I think you should report it to the State Court Administrator.

    Or are you conceding the state's records are accurate and those people did vote illegally in the election?

    By your standard, the Joker in Colorado and the Nazi in Milwaukee did not kill anybody because they have not been CONVICTED. You are using the wrong metric to evaulate the risk of illegal voters influencing the election.

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  12. Joe,

    The group you've named has not ever proven, not once, a claim of fraud. They've made lots of claims, but no sustantiable, supportable proof. Sorry. Their claims were investigated, they were shown to be the next closest thing to baseless in every case, and baseless in virtually every case. Claims aren't proof. Real evidence causing people to act to correct them IS. You don't have it, sorry.

    But let's take it a bit further, even IF 200 felons voted improperly/fraudulently - which isn't true, but even IF it were true, why do you assume 100% would have voted for Franken - in the closest election in Minnesota history? Even IF it broke 60/40 for Franken (a dubious number indeed) that means Franken got 40 more votes, the margin was 350. It wouldn't change the election. But, there WEREN'T 200 fraudulent votes. That claim is a bogus lie. It is not a mistake, it is a lie. Nothing short of it - it's utter fiction, crapolla, garbage, it hasn't been proven and can't BE proven.

    But, let's go the other direction. In 2000, Florida PROVABLY improperly removed 14000 people from their voter roles. Katherine Harris was warned, months prior to the elction that the people identified for these removals were probably shot through with errors, duplications, improper matches and the like BY THE COMPANY WHICH PREPARED THE DATA. Ms. Harris did NOTHING to stop the removal of these voters. A review of the removals shows that those removed probably would have voted for Gore to the tune of 60/40 or more. The difference, therefore, was on the order of 1400 expected votes for Gore - the difference in THAT race was 400 votes. That DID change the election of the Presidency, it was naked voter suppression, it was wrong, it was PROVABLY wrong - and this isn't in dispute.

    While you fiddle about bogus vote fraud, where is your concern about real voter suppression?

    As always, what I find with conservatives is you complain about the small stuff while ignoring the big issues right in front of your face. You complain about foreign aid, but have no issue with wasteful military spending, spending on farm subsidies, no-bid contracts to Haliburton, wars done for convenience killing 500,000 people, and on and on.

    In short, everything I hear about is "not in my back yard" short-sightedness, but there is ZERO actual regard for real and profound cases of inequity and injustice.

    If you truly want to go learn about voter fraud, read about it from a source which actually is peer-reviewed, it's facts are double-sourced and is highly prestigious for integrity. Go read the Brennan Law Review study on Voter Fraud - The Brennan Law Review is the review by the NY University Law School, one of the top three law schools in the country. Their conclusion, paraphrased, is simply this, voter fraud is so rare as to not exist, yet the claims are made quite simply to strip those who might vote a certain way, of their chance to vote. Go read it - and then ask yourself, are you truly concerned with the truth? Are you concerned with the big picture of preserving our democracy, or are you just fiddling around while our national identity burns?

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  13. No, Joe, that is not a reliable list, nor is it a reliable organization.

    They may have put together a list of convictions; but so long as it differs from the gold-medal bipartisan attorneys list of convictions, I am confident that those are not in fact all voter fraud convictions. I have gone through too much reliable, verifiable properly vetted and challenged sources that came from far less partisan and frankly less crackpot groups.

    That group made claims originally that they had VERIFIED thousands of instances of voter fraud. They pressed it to the point that counties had to hire more people with money they didn't have for that project to prove their elections were legit -- and they DID prove it. YOU go do the fact checking for a change; you go look at that list, and then check the names on it with the counties in question and the actual legal records. They've cried wolf way too many times to be worth MY TIME.

    And then get back to us with your findings. I think some fact finding would do you good, including seeing how poorly a foundation the things you believe are.

    But as Pen pointed out -- you have NO credible basis for the assertion that voter fraud changed the election. Coleman had the opportunity to challenge the election, btw, in court on voter fraud. He didn't just NOT bring it up -- the court brought it up, and ASKED him (and Franken)if they wanted to challenge on that issue. I'm guessing he didn't want to focus on the known voter fraud conviction FOR COLEMAN.

    Coleman said NO. More than that however, Coleman AND HIS ATTORNEYS made it very clear they did not consider that an issue or a problem. It was one of the few points in that strongly contested election on which they agreed. If there was anything to go on, ANYTHING AT ALL regarding voter fraud in Franken's favor, you can bet your ass Coleman would have used it to challenge in court.

    Your wrong on the numbers, but more than that, you are wrong on the assumption that voter fraud is by democrats or other liberals, and against Republicans.

    The sad reality Joe is that where there is clear intentional deliberate voter fraud, not people mistakenly acting in good faith when they were ineligable voters on some technicality, they have committed voter fraud as Republicans for Republicans.

    That was true with the guy who voted twice in the 2008 election and was prosecuted.
    That was true of the REPUBLICAN secretary of state for Indiana, who used his state issued state required ID to fraudulently run for office, and fraudulently vote -- and then was convicted as well for perjury, and obstruction of justice in that 2010 election. It was Republcians convicted in other elections as well.

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  14. This whole load of crap that there is Democratic voter fraud is based on multiple studies - including by the current chair of the sociology depart of the U of MN, one of the leading experts on voting IN THE WORLD - that were misreported and misrepresented by Mitch Berg, Fox News, Michele Bachmann, Tim Pawlenty and others.

    What those studies actually said -- and Pend and I read them, where NONE of the individuals above did -- was that AFTER getting their voting rights back, in the low instances of FORMER felons voting, they tended to vote more for democrats than for republicans. THOSE STUDIES ALSO SHOWED THERE WAS A LOT OF REPBULICAN ELECTION TAMPERING BY VOTER SUPPRESSION OF TENS, SOMETIMES HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF VOTES, OF LEGAL VOTERS.

    GOT THAT JOE? SUPPRESSION OF LEGAL VOTERS BY REPUBLICANS INTEENTIONALLY TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF ELECTIONS IS PROVEN, NOT A MYTH.

    All those studies ALSO said that voter fraud, by anyone, including felons, was so incredibly rare as to be nonexistent. That would be the kind you are claiming but too lazy to fact check yourself.

    All of those studies were peer reviewed, fact checked, verified meticulously.

    Pennsylvania in their current court challenge over voter ID stipulated NO VOTER FRAUD, and that they didn't expect any.

    Indiana conservatives in their SCOTUS case over voter ID, admitted - though less willingly - they had NO VOTER FRAUD, and that voter ID wouldn't in fact prevent any voter fraud either.
    Which proved prophetic years later when their secretary of state was tossed out for it, having used voter ID to vote.

    You would have more credibility for factual information asserting unicorns are real or Big Foot was an active voter. You believe a fantasy, and you listen to fringe crazy crackpot groups for your facts - on voter fraud on union participation in voter fraud, the whole package. And you believe that it is done by democrats, for democrats, without ANY LEGITIMATE BASIS WHATSOEVER FOR YOUR BELIEF.

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  15. You should be asking yourself this question Joe.
    Why is it that in every state that has passed voter ID, they campaigned for it on claims of voter fraud as a problem they needed to prevent.

    Yet in EVERY case that has gone to court challenging the voter ID laws, after they pass, those same states admit in open court that voter ID is not intended to prevent voter fraud, and that they don't in fact have any voter fraud they can point to as justification for voter ID.

    EVERY STATE JOE. Just like Minnesota. In court - as was the case with Coleman in the 2008 election - they DENY VOTER FRAUD IS A PROBLEM.

    You must like being lied to Joe; you believe those lies so eagerly.

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  16. Joe,

    Frankly, I don't have the time during my work day to go through all this, but I DO have pretty enormous trust in DG to have done so.

    If she says the cases you've cited aren't about voter FRAUD, but instead are about voter registration FRAUD or anything else, or if she says they weren't factual, I'm likely going to believe her over you. I am going to do so for a couple of reasons, first, she's REALLY REALLY good at research, second, the other, FAR more reliable, FAR more numerous, FAR more compelling evidence outside your (lack of) "integrity" site, show both that voter fraud is a fiction and WHY it is.

    By your standards, though, we should believe in the "Truther" and "Birther" movements, I mean, after all, there are people who "swear" they heard secondary explosions on 9/11 just as and even just before the buildings collapsed. Those are, I'm sure, quite credible, aren't you?

    Furthermore, the state of MN DID publish it's findings on voter fraud from 2008 Joe, and they found 47 cases of improper votes, 43 by felons who, almost without exception, SHOULD have been allowed to vote. Leaving 4 cases Joe, FOUR, not 200, FOUR, due to other reasons. Of those four, as I understand it, only ONE was actual fraud, ONE person voted for Coleman/McCain twice, on purpose, committing actual overvoting fraud, on purpose. You need to check your facts much better than you are doing. Seriously, you need to do a lot better job at checking. Your facts aren't facts, and, as you conservatives so often like to claim, they don't stand up to the scientific method, the vast preponderence of evidence refutes these claims.

    The reason those who push voter ID don't bring things up in court, why Coleman didn't, why in state after state where this is challenged DOESN'T bring this up is you are barred, legally, from arguing points which you KNOW you cannot prove and further which you suspect are lkely false. It's called making a specious argument in the first place, and supborning perjury in the second. Ever wonder why they don't make this claim, Joe? Seriously.

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  17. I've already checked out the previous claims made by this group (sort of two groups, but effectively just one bunch of bunglers).

    It's not like I've only looked at their claims once, or event twice. I have looked at their claims more than that, and they haven't come up with what they claim.

    I produce a lot of facts, verify them before I post with other sources, and read a LOT of pages of original documents.

    While I'm sure that Joe is feeling a bit aggrieved that I didn't go running off to check out his wonderful source -- he doesn't appear to have checked it before presenting it here.

    I think given both the extraordinarily unsuccessful track record this group has, AND how much I fact check (here and elsewhere) it is not unfair of me to challenge Joe to do some verifying for a change.

    Here's my reasoning - I do my homework before asserting information; it is not only fair to expect it from others, it is a good experience for them to try for a change.

    Minnesota is no different than all the other states that have tried Voter ID. They campaign for it on unfounded charges of voter fraud, until it becomes an unchallenged belief from nothing more than repetition.

    Then when they get hauled into court - as they do over and over and over - when they have to speak or file a motion in front of a judge, suddenly THE EXACT SAME PEOPLE do a 180 degree turn and claim there was no voter fraud, there is no voter fraud, they expect no voter fraud, voter ID won't prevent voter fraud and voter fraud wasn't really the reason for the change to voter ID ------ it was just to make their state's voting somehow better.

    Because being caught telling a lie in front of a judge isn't good for the attorneys, or the legal case for voter ID.

    Go look for yourselves. And then ask yourself if you still believe the people telling you there is voter fraud.

    I'm going to steal some time for myself to watch TIVOd Olympic events and then go pick some fresh red apples. It is a beautiful day to go play outside.

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